Discussion Theological theory Vs Faith

[Alithis]

Its an interesting thing
... When I say theological theory.VS Faith...
Its based upon faith being the action a person takes based on what they believe.

Then i add the words of the great commision - And..... People oppose it, and at the same time they profess to be " Believers" in JESUS.
This is very revealing .
Because either a person believes JESUS is lord and so sets out to learn to DO as he says and wills
.Or , they do not Actually believe... And so do Not step out to learn obedience.

 

[Strong in Him]

Its an interesting thing
... When I say theological theory.VS Faith...
Its based upon faith being the action a person takes based on what they believe.

I'm sure most of us here try to do that.
We believe that God is on the side of the poor; we help the poor. We believe God wants people to know him; we try to spread the Good News.

Then i add the words of the great commision - And..... People oppose it,

I doubt people oppose the Great Commission.
There may be debates about HOW we make disciples, but no one would deny the need for us to do so.

This is very revealing .
Because either a person believes JESUS is lord and so sets out to learn to DO as he says and wills
.Or , they do not Actually believe... And so do Not step out to learn obedience.

You know that you're mixing up two different things? That Great Commission is Go, make disciples, baptise and teach, Matthew 28:19. Earlier you talked about people going out doing signs and wonders, healing and raising the dead. None of these are mentioned in the Great Commission. Assuming that "teaching them to obey everything I commanded you" means, "you must go out, heal the sick and drive out demons", is reading into the text.

Maybe that's what people are opposing; not Scripture, but your interpretation of it.

 

[nanookadenord]

Maybe that's what people are opposing; not Scripture, but your interpretation of it.

Yep!

 

[Alithis]

I'm sure most of us here try to do that.
We believe that God is on the side of the poor; we help the poor. We believe God wants people to know him; we try to spread the Good News.



I doubt people oppose the Great Commission.
There may be debates about HOW we make disciples, but no one would deny the need for us to do so.



You know that you're mixing up two different things? That Great Commission is Go, make disciples, baptise and teach, Matthew 28:19. Earlier you talked about people going out doing signs and wonders, healing and raising the dead. None of these are mentioned in the Great Commission. Assuming that "teaching them to obey everything I commanded you" means, "you must go out, heal the sick and drive out demons", is reading into the text.

Maybe that's what people are opposing; not Scripture, but your interpretation of it.

The great commision begins with Go...heal the sick.

I believe it was you who brought up objection to having to do signs and wonders.
But you can relax... Such things follow those who believe.
We dont do them, God does, as we step out and obey him (obedience is evidence both that we believe him and love him) He is faithful to his word.
If we preach the gospel without the demonstration of the power of God then what are we going to disciple a person into? Cessationism? The belief in a powerless God??
We cant disciple a person into something we are not living.

 

[nanookadenord]

The great commision begins with Go...heal the sick.

Hmm... Where?

The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb]">[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

This is the point, we have an issue with your interpretation of the scriptures you have been using in order to tell other Christians that they are doing it wrong. That they aren't doing the will of God because they're not healing or casting out demons. We have provided you with scripture that counters your claim and you dismiss it with your own interpretation of the plain to see scripture we posted.

 

[Alithis]

Hmm... Where?

The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb]">[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

This is the point, we have an issue with your interpretation of the scriptures you have been using in order to tell other Christians that they are doing it wrong. That they aren't doing the will of God because they're not healing or casting out demons. We have provided you with scripture that counters your claim and you dismiss it with your own interpretation of the plain to see scripture we posted.

Does on verse cancell another verse...
Does what thw lord Jesus say cancel what he says elsewhere?
No ...
The great commision is all of what he said. Not just a favoured sentance .

 

[nanookadenord]

Does on verse cancell another verse...
Does what thw lord Jesus say cancel what he says elsewhere?
No ...
The great commision is all of what he said. Not just a favoured sentance .

See, you are dismissing the plain scripture set before you. If the great commission meant healing as you have interpreted it, then it would say it, and it does not.

 

[Alithis]

See, you are dismissing the plain scripture set before you. If the great commission meant healing as you have interpreted it, then it would say it, and it does not.

i get the feeling you dont believe God. Can heal through you..but he cam and wants to.
Lets put it in context...
When you Go to make a disciple what must proceed doing so?
Repentance... And how do they know to repent?
You told them the Gospel message
And if they are sick.. What are you to do.. ?

In the 4 testimonies we see that JESUS is making disciples. He is training them How to do his will.
He is training them in how to do the great commission.
Read like chapter 10 to see this actioned training in process .

 

[Strong in Him]

The great commision begins with Go...heal the sick.

I believe it was you who brought up objection to having to do signs and wonders.
But you can relax... Such things follow those who believe.
We dont do them, God does, as we step out and obey him (obedience is evidence both that we believe him and love him) He is faithful to his word.
If we preach the gospel without the demonstration of the power of God then what are we going to disciple a person into? Cessationism? The belief in a powerless God??
We cant disciple a person into something we are not living.

The great commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’

I believe it was you who brought up objection to having to do signs and wonders.

You interpreted it like that. I don't object, I'm saying that not everyone can do them.

But you can relax... Such things follow those who believe.

Then a) they should be automatic and b) there should be hundreds of people coming to faith, since there are thousands of Christian believers.

We dont do them, God does, as we step out and obey him (obedience is evidence both that we believe him and love him) He is faithful to his word.

Great; I have faith in God, let him do what he will.

If we preach the gospel without the demonstration of the power of God then what are we going to disciple a person into? Cessationism? The belief in a powerless God??

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes

Romans 1:16

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

1 Corinthians 1:18

By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also

1 Corinthians 6:14

and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

Ephesians 1:19-20

Do you believe that the Gospel is the power of God and, alone, is powerful?
Do you believe that the resurrection of Christ showed the power of God?
Or do you need a sign of physical healing before you believe in that power?

We cant disciple a person into something we are not living.

I thought you just said that we don't do them but that they follow anyone who believes? All we should need to do, then, is tell a new Christian to believe, and that would be that.
But that's not what making a disciple means.

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: ‘Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

John 13:35

That's what being a disciple is about.

 

[Alithis]

I'm saying that not everyone can do them.

...With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

To say not every one can Do what JESUS says to do does not agree with God
This must be corrected so that we agree with the lord. And not with unbelief.
There is nothing in scripture of Jesus saying not everyone can...
The Lord Jesus said.. "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it..."

So this cancells out Any notion of " some can't.."
The true issue lays in that many " wont" !
They fear man more then God so they won't even try.
Instead they cherry pick verses and make up theological theories to self excuse.
They are filled with unbelief.

 

[Strong in Him]

Instead they cherry pick verses and make up theological theories to self excuse.
They are filled with unbelief.

Saying that a Christian is cherry picking Scriptures and is filled with unbelief because they don't agree with YOUR interpretation of a couple of verses, is wrong and unkind.

You seem to have no answer to my question, and the Scriptures, about the Gospel being the power of God.

 

[Alithis]

Saying that a Christian is cherry picking Scriptures and is filled with unbelief because they don't agree with YOUR interpretation of a couple of verses, is wrong and unkind.

You seem to have no answer to my question, and the Scriptures, about the Gospel being the power of God.

The Gospel is to be preached in conjunction with the demonstration of the power of God.
Just as JESUS showed us.
One cannot say to a person " the kingdom of God has come near you if one does not bring the kingdom .
A kingdom is the governmental rule and sphere of influencing power.
If there is no power then only a theory of the Gospel is being preached.
How was the lord JESUS verified ? By the signs that followed him .he is our surpreme example
We are to become like him.
He Said the works i do you will do also...

Many have been encouraged to Not believe in the words of JESUS.
We need not be that way. But rather believe.

A theological theory remains a theory if it is not put into practice.
And a theory cannot aid a sick and suffering person.
We must bring the love and govermental influence if power to that person.. It is the loving thing to do.
It is also what we are commanded to do .
It is love.
We Can and ARE to do it.

Gods word is God word.
His promises are yes and Amen .

Jesus said if your a hearer of the word but not a doer then you decieve yourself.

 

[Alithis]

Scriptures and is filled with unbelief because they don't agree with YOUR interpretation of a couple of verses, is wrong and unkind.

But i didnt say that ... I said they cherry pick verses to make up theological excuse for not believing GODs word spoken in Christ Jesus .they do not believe so they do not Do.if they sincerely believe they will Do..

There is growth but all must be encouraged and equipped to step out and grow up into maturity of faith.. The doing of the word..the action of obedience.

I'm here encouraging the reader that they CAN do all Jesus said we are to do. It is not for the select few. It is for Any and All disciples of JESUS.
You appear to be bent in opposition and telling people its not possible..

 

[nanookadenord]

i get the feeling you dont believe God. Can heal through you..but he cam and wants to.
Lets put it in context...
When you Go to make a disciple what must proceed doing so?
Repentance... And how do they know to repent?
You told them the Gospel message
And if they are sick.. What are you to do.. ?

In the 4 testimonies we see that JESUS is making disciples. He is training them How to do his will.
He is training them in how to do the great commission.
Read like chapter 10 to see this actioned training in process .

Oh, I believe God. However, healing is not the gift I was given.

Scripture says not all are healers. Why do you dismiss that? Is it because it does not align with how you interpret scripture?

It is plain to see and read as there is no mystery behind not all can heal as it says in scripture.

 

[Alithis]

Oh, I believe God. However, healing is not the gift I was given.

Scripture says not all are healers. Why do you dismiss that? Is it because it does not align with how you interpret scripture?

It is plain to see and read as there is no mystery behind not all can heal as it says in scripture.

Where does it say not all can heal?

The gifts you speak of ..what are they for?
They are for the building up of the body
Just as are the apostle teacher prophet evangalist etc.. They are given extra ability for the purpose of building and equiping all the body.
Equipping it to what?
To the whole work of the Gospel
So if one is more gifted to healing the sick they are so gifted for the edifying of others to do the same.if they are Not teaching other disciples how to do so then they are being unfaithfil with that God given ability..
Just so, the ministry of the evangalist is to Both evangelize and teach/equip all others How to do so too.
To just say i dont evangelize because im.not an evangelist..is just self excusing .

Please select the correct scriptural based statement.. A or B .

A. "These signs shall follow the select few who have a gift of healing ; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover...."

B. These signs shall follow those that believe ; " They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.."(along with speaking in tongues , driving out devils etc.)

- its B!
All the promises of God are Yes and all promises are obtained by those that believe and then Act on that believe (which is what faith is)
We can ever enter into his promises if we refuse to believe them.
Unbelief is antifaith.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Gospel is to be preached in conjunction with the demonstration of the power of God.
Just as JESUS showed us.

And yet this does not happen everywhere in Scripture.
Yes, Peter and Paul performed miracles and raised the dead - sometimes. But sometimes they preached without doing these things.

One cannot say to a person " the kingdom of God has come near you if one does not bring the kingdom .

WE can't bring the kingdom, God does that. Jesus taught us to pray, "thy kingdom come"; we wouldn't need to ask God to bring his kingdom if we were responsible for doing so.
Our task is to introduce people to the king. Jesus said "the kingdom of God is within you" - yes, if he is living in someone as king; it is.

A kingdom is the governmental rule and sphere of influencing power.
If there is no power then only a theory of the Gospel is being preached.

The Gospel itself is power., Romans 1:16.
The Gospel contains the Good News that God raised Jesus from the dead by his power and that power can live in us.
Through the power of God people are born again, John 3:3, become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, receive gifts 1 Corinthians 12:28, preach the Gospel and make disciples, Matthew 28:19. Christians have also testified that God's power has enabled them to break bad habits, freed them from addictions and enabled them to do things they would not have thought possible - like going into prisons or onto the mission field to preach. There are many testimonies of non Christians being born again by hearing the Gospel, accepting it and receiving this new life and new heart. Many have been attracted to the Good News, not by a miracle of healing - if someone doesn't want to believe, they can, and will, explain that away - but by seeing love, joy and a changed life in a Christian.
Jesus said that people would know that we are his disciples if we love one another; not when we perform miracles.

How was the lord JESUS verified ? By the signs that followed him .

The message that Jesus brought - God is among you, you can talk to him directly, you can know him personally as your Father and he can live IN you - was new. He demonstrated that his words were true and showed people how much God loved and cared about them by healing them.
But he was persecuted, and almost stoned, not for his miracles but because he claimed to be God, John 10:33.

.
We are to become like him.

Yes.
That doesn't necessarily mean performing miracles though. Paul said that the Spirit is transforming us into Jesus' likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18, not "transforming you so you have the ability to do miracles."

A theological theory remains a theory if it is not put into practice.
And a theory cannot aid a sick and suffering person.

God can heal today; that is a fact and many have testified to that healing.
I believe God heals today, I have received healing - from him, not through a Christian preaching and demonstrating a gift. Many sick people HAVE been helped, and brought to Christ, by prayer, love, being visited and comforted etc. Some have become Christians and been saved without being physically healed.

We must bring the love and govermental influence if power to that person.. It is the loving thing to do.

We must preach the Good News and introduce that person to the God who is love; certainly.

It is also what we are commanded to do .
It is love.
We Can and ARE to do it.

If you believe that you can't show a sick person the love of God without laying hands on them and praying for their cancer to be removed; that's what you must do. As you said though, GOD does the miracle - and he may not. Or at least, not at that particular time. Joni Eareckson had, and has had, many hands laid on her - she is still in a wheelchair, but is making Christ known to thousands.

The cross shows us the love of God; the resurrection shows his power.
A person can accept him as king, be born again and in the kingdom without receivng, or doing, miracles of healing.

Jesus said if your a hearer of the word but not a doer then you decieve yourself.

Another out of context verse which you have quoted to mean what you want it to mean.

 

[Strong in Him]

But i didnt say that ... I said they cherry pick verses to make up theological excuse for not believing GODs word spoken in Christ Jesus .

People here DO believe God's word.
We don't necessarily believe that obeying God's word means that we have to go out, do miracles and heal those who are physically sick.
A person could do that and still be disobeying God's word in other areas of their life. They could be ignoring the poor or failing to feed the hungry; they could be judgemental, unforgiving, unkind, showing discrimination etc etc but fool themselves in thinking that because they are healing, they are being Godly and doing his will.
Occasionally, non Christians are healed through white witches, new age teachings, spiritualists or other teachings - do they become born again believers? No; they have been healed but are not in the kingdom of God. A physical healing does not guarantee the person will become a Christian.

There is growth but all must be encouraged and equipped to step out and grow up into maturity of faith..

Many Christians grow, have grown and become mature in the faith without being able to demonstrate the gift of healing.

I'm here encouraging the reader that they CAN do all Jesus said we are to do.

You are implying, even stating, that if a Christian does NOT do this, we are not obeying God, not putting his word into practice and not being like Jesus. That is incorrect.

You appear to be bent in opposition and telling people its not possible..

I am saying that a Christian can know, love, serve, obey and know God as king in their lives without being able to do miracles and heal others. That is a fact.

As I've said before, if it was automatic that whenever the Gospel was preached miracles would follow; we'd see miracles and healings in our churches every week. I preach the Gospel often. People don't get out of their wheelchairs and start dancing in the aisles, yet they may be challenged, comforted and prompted to know God in a new way through the words that HE gives me to speak. That is the same for many preachers. Christians have been called, challenged, converted and strengthened through sermons. Some have been prompted to search the Scriptures for themselves, some have been filled, baptised or refilled with the Holy Spirit.

God said that his word would never return to him empty but would accomplish what HE desired, Isaiah 55:11. He did not say, "unless there is physical healing or an outward miracle, people have not preached my word correctly."

That seems to be what you are saying - Jesus didn't teach that.

 

[nanookadenord]

Where does it say not all can heal?

I have posted the scripture already within the thread.

 

[Alithis]

I have posted the scripture already within the thread.

No you posted a verse about the gifts ..
The same svriptures says we are to earnestly desir all the gifts
Jesus also said whatever you ask.in.my name if you do.not doubt.in your heart ..you have it.. Pp.

See the dilemma here?
You picked out 1 verse and used it as if it cancells what Jesus said. It never can.

You see this is what theological theory does when it is not mixed with faith .
Faith is the action you take when we sincerely believe who jesus is and what he said .
Without faith its impossible to please God.

 

[nanookadenord]

No you posted a verse about the gifts ..
The same svriptures says we are to earnestly desir all the gifts
Jesus also said whatever you ask.in.my name if you do.not doubt.in your heart ..you have it.. Pp.

See the dilemma here?
You picked out 1 verse and used it as if it cancells what Jesus said. It never can.

You see this is what theological theory does when it is not mixed with faith .
Faith is the action you take when we sincerely believe who jesus is and what he said .
Without faith its impossible to please God.

Nope. I posted the correct scripture, you are just choosing to ignore it in favor of your pet doctrine, which the scripture I posted refutes, which is your dilemma, not mine..

I have faith, lots of faith, still cannot heal.