Does your doing away with your sin, earn you the right to get into Heaven...? And/or does it...?

[Neogaia777]

I'm not playing games. Ok. I'll put you out of your misery!
The answer is...wait for it...
Jesus invited him to lunch!

Oh my gosh, really... So, I guess all the good food caused him to repent then...?

Anyway, his "whole encounter with God/Jesus" caused him to change (some of) his ways, ect, or, IOW's, "his seeing (and meeting with) God", like I said...

Sorry if I'm to serious or literal though, BTW... I'll try to do better K...?

God Bless!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I read it, and I'm going with my original answer: "HE SAW GOD", "met" Him, and met with Him, dined with Him, ect, and that caused his "supposed repentance that is not specifically mentioned", kind of thing, ect...

Or I'll put it another way: "His encounter with Jesus caused some kind of, notable and noteworthy to Jesus, permanent lasting change in him on the inside of him, that was notable and noteworthy to Jesus, so much so (to Jesus) that He (Jesus) wanted "well known and mentioned" to all, for all time...

But, I highly doubt Zacchaeus, ever attained to 100% total and complete, total sinless perfection, either at that time, or at any time here...

But, this is (way) "off topic" though, and I'm asking that we get back to the OP, OK...?

God Bless!

This is not off topic at all. It is central to the gospel of Christ.

Zacchaeus didn't know that Jesus was God. That was revealed to Peter by revelation. Zack did not have that revelation. But he found out that Jesus was the Messiah and that Jesus' simple act of acceptance of him, in spite of his deep sinfulness, without any requirement of repentance or obedience, Zack knew that he was accepted and saved through that simple act of acceptance, and after that, he repented and obeyed the Law.

My point is that we are accepted of God in His family, received the assurance of God pleasing him, and then after that, we repent, not through obligation, but through gratitude. Therefore we don't obey the gospel to be accepted by God, we obey it out of gratitude because we are accepted by God first!

 

[Neogaia777]

@Oscarr Sorry Oscarr, really truly and sincerely...

Forgive me...?

God Bless!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh my gosh, really... So, I guess all the good food caused him to repent then...?

Anyway, his "whole encounter with God/Jesus" caused him to change (some of) his ways, ect, or, IOW's, "his seeing (and meeting with) God", like I said...

Sorry if I'm to serious or literal though, BTW... I'll try to do better K...?

God Bless!

It was because Jesus loved and accepted him while still a vile and evil robber and a sinner. Unless we understand this, we will miss out on what the gospel of Christ really is. If we try to repent before knowing that we are accepted and loved, then that is the works of the law to try and please God, and God won't accept it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

@Oscarr Sorry Oscarr, really truly and sincerely...

Forgive me...?

God Bless!

How can I not forgive someone whom God loves and accepts?

 

[Neogaia777]

This is not off topic at all. It is central to the gospel of Christ.

Zacchaeus didn't know that Jesus was God. That was revealed to Peter by revelation. Zack did not have that revelation. But he found out that Jesus was the Messiah and that Jesus simple act of acceptance of him, in spite of his deep sinfulness, without any requirement of repentance or obedience, Zack knew that he was accepted and saved through that simple act of acceptance, and after that, he repented and obeyed the Law.

My point is that we are accepted of God in His family, received the assurance of God pleasing him, and then after that, we repent, not through obligation, but through gratitude. Therefore we don't obey the gospel to be accepted by God, we obey it out of gratitude because we are accepted by God first!

He knew what was said about the one who would be the Messiah, and recognized Jesus as such, and his meeting Him personally, cause him to repent of "what" Oscarr...?

"All sin" or what...? "Never ever sinned again" after that, or what...?

But I think I am getting your point though, we should repent of what we can out of gratitude alone, and try not to sin anymore as much as we can, when we recognize the entirety of all He, all God, has done for us, provided for us, gives us "freely", ect, out of Love for Him (God) because of that, ect, and not for any other reasons, for other reasons would be sin, right, ect, ect...?

But I'm not talking about the "normal" kind of "usual" repentance here, which most of the time, is only "partial"... I'm talking about the kind that might or could gain or get you something in return, for in the here and now, kind of thing...

Or, IOW's, "what is the point of repenting, (or trying to have or attain to the very rare kind of total and complete repentance like Jesus had), if there is basically, "no point to repenting"...? IOW's...?

Why fight or struggle against sin, or why try to not sin, if there is really no point to fighting or struggling against sin...? Or could you maybe tell me the point to it maybe...? Or is it all in vain, and all "vanity" in the end...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

How can I not forgive someone whom God loves and accepts?

Thanks, thank you,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

It was because Jesus loved and accepted him while still a vile and evil robber and a sinner. Unless we understand this, we will miss out on what the gospel of Christ really is.

Could you help me to understand it, or understand it more maybe, possibly...? Cause I'm just going to tell you the truth, "it" or this whole thing or issue, is just "not making a whole lot of (logical) sense" to me, and I don't know that it ever will at this point...?

Can you help me...?

If we try to repent before knowing that we are accepted and loved, then that is the works of the law to try and please God, and God won't accept it.

I agree, which is why I said what I just said immediately prior to, or above this, in this response just now...?

God Bless!

 

[friend of]

Posted this in another thread but I think it bears repeating one more time

I was just contemplating scripture earlier (as we Christians do) and it came to me that in Luke 14:26 Jesus talks about how our love for Him must dwarf our love of others and even our own lives. In Matthew 10:38 Jesus talks about how anyone that refuses to take up their own cross (an instrument of death to the flesh) in order to follow Him is unworthy.

So. If Jesus says to hate even our closest family members, how much more must He demand that we hate our sin? If Jesus says to hate even our own lives, how much more must He demand that we hate our own selfish ambition? If we refuse to obey His commands, how can it be said that we are taking up our cross in pursuit of Him?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The point I am making through my round-about way of doing it is that repentance is a work. Don't get me wrong. It is a good work and we all should do it whenever we get into strife. Obedience to the commands of Christ are good works as well, and we are much better off by complying with them. I have no contention about that at all.

But these are works, and they do not please God or make us acceptable to Him. There will be many who will say, 'Lord, Lord" and try to justify themselves by their good works. Prophecy, casting out demons, doing great things for God are really good works and the more we do for God the better! But we cannot use those to be justified.

We need to accept God's grace and mercy and allow Him to accept us while we are vile, evil sinners deserving of Hell. Someone said, "Everything short of Hell is by God's grace". Everything we are and have, living in the world around us, is all by God's grace. We never earned it. The Scripture asks, "What have you got that you never received?"

The Cross and Resurrection kills our pride and stops us thinking we are something when we are nothing. We come as we are, in all our sins and filthiness and find grace and mercy and full acceptance. Zack found that out when Jesus came to lunch and accepted him in spite of what he was. Jesus ate with him, which was a social evil in Israel for a self-respecting Jew to do. Jesus ate and socialised with drunks, sinners, and prostitutes, before they repented and reformed. He accepted them as they were. That is the gospel of Christ.

We turn to Christ in our sinfulness, and He accepts us, forgives and cleanses us, and fills us with the Holy Spirit. Just think of that! The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in a vile, evil, sinful body! How much love does that take?? I say, infinite love!

Once that happens, then we can repent and obey the commands of Christ out of sheer gratitude for what He has done for us. We have a new heart and spirit and all we want to do is to glorify Christ in our lives. It is not to please God any more than his pleasure in us already. He rejoiced along with the angels when we first turned to Christ, and our turning to Christ pleased Him immensely, because here is another soul rescued from the kingdom of darkness, and it shows Satan's utter defeat because he could not stop that soul from escaping his clutches.

That's what I believe is salvation by faith in Christ alone.

 

[Neogaia777]

What is not making very much sense to me, is the whole "if He accepts us as we are", part, then "why do we need to, or why should we (try/struggle/fight/resist, ect), or why should we have to, repent", part...?

If He accepts as we are why do we need to change...? What is the point, ect...? Is in vain, and vanity, ect...?

And if repentance or doing away with sin, is "a work", "the work", on "our part", then how is it not "all of us and almost none of God", type thing...?

Where is the middle ground, and what does all of this "mean"...?

Because I'm just not understanding it...?

Now if there were some kind of reward or benefit involved...? But then, doing it because of that would not be right either, so...?

Where is His great Love for us, and where is all that He has done for us, and His "free gift" or gifts to us, if were having to do "repentance" or whatever, all on our own or by ourselves...? How is that not "earning it" ect...?

And I could go on... and on... and on... But I'll stop there for now, and maybe you guys will get what I'm trying to say hopefully...?

Anyway, if you guys can help at all, I would be eternally grateful...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The point I am making through my round-about way of doing it is that repentance is a work. Don't get me wrong. It is a good work and we all should do it whenever we get into strife. Obedience to the commands of Christ are good works as well, and we are much better off by complying with them. I have no contention about that at all.

But these are works, and they do not please God or make us acceptable to Him. There will be many who will say, 'Lord, Lord" and try to justify themselves by their good works. Prophecy, casting out demons, doing great things for God are really good works and the more we do for God the better! But we cannot use those to be justified.

We need to accept God's grace and mercy and allow Him to accept us while we are vile, evil sinners deserving of Hell. Someone said, "Everything short of Hell is by God's grace". Everything we are and have, living in the world around us, is all by God's grace. We never earned it. The Scripture asks, "What have you got that you never received?"

The Cross and Resurrection kills our pride and stops us thinking we are something when we are nothing. We come as we are, in all our sins and filthiness and find grace and mercy and full acceptance. Zack found that out when Jesus came to lunch and accepted him in spite of what he was. Jesus ate with him, which was a social evil in Israel for a self-respecting Jew to do. Jesus ate and socialised with drunks, sinners, and prostitutes, before they repented and reformed. He accepted them as they were. That is the gospel of Christ.

We turn to Christ in our sinfulness, and He accepts us, forgives and cleanses us, and fills us with the Holy Spirit. Just think of that! The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in a vile, evil, sinful body! How much love does that take?? I say, infinite love!

Once that happens, then we can repent and obey the commands of Christ out of sheer gratitude for what He has done for us. We have a new heart and spirit and all we want to do is to glorify Christ in our lives. It is not to please God any more than his pleasure in us already. He rejoiced along with the angels when we first turned to Christ, and our turning to Christ pleased Him immensely, because here is another soul rescued from the kingdom of darkness, and it shows Satan's utter defeat because he could not stop that soul from escaping his clutches.

That's what I believe is salvation by faith in Christ alone.

His great Love for us is very beautiful and glorious and all of that, but it's just not seeming to help me with these issues I'm saying or talking about in this thread with right now, ect...

I'm looking for something that will, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Posted this in another thread but I think it bears repeating one more time

I was just contemplating scripture earlier (as we Christians do) and it came to me that in Luke 14:26 Jesus talks about how our love for Him must dwarf our love of others and even our own lives. In Matthew 10:38 Jesus talks about how anyone that refuses to take up their own cross (an instrument of death to the flesh) in order to follow Him is unworthy.

So. If Jesus says to hate even our closest family members, how much more must He demand that we hate our sin? If Jesus says to hate even our own lives, how much more must He demand that we hate our own selfish ambition? If we refuse to obey His commands, how can it be said that we are taking up our cross in pursuit of Him?

I don't think hate is the answer...

I was told that this whole fight or struggle or "whatever" is not ever won through aggression, or aggressive feelings, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Does "your" doing away with "your" sin, "earn" you the "right" to get into Heaven...?

Now I will try and address your issues.
We don't have any rights at all. That is the main issue. We have no right to heaven, a good life, happiness, or anything else. All we deserve is an eternity in hell. If we try to "do away" with our sin, we will fail, because being sinners is what we are, and what we do comes out of what we are. God doesn't need anything from us, so the only wages come from sin, and that is death and hell.

So to get rid of our sinful acts, we have to stop being a sinful person and we can't do that ourselves.

So that is the first point.

And/or does "it" give you, or earn you, (the right), or make you, or cause you to (become) "stronger than", or somehow make you strong enough to overcome the enemy, and/or make or cause him to submit (to you?), and do (your?) "bidding", ect...?

My first answer answers this question as well. We can't become stronger, overcome our enemy or make him submit to us.

Or cause you to have, or get, or gain "power" (over him) of some kind or some sort...? And, if so, from where (does that power come from)...?

We don't get any power at all. We need a new heart and spirit, and we can't create that ourselves. We need for God to convert us, give us a new heart and spirit.

And to the former right before this, also I ask "if so", how is it not "you" and all (your own) "doing", ect...?

Because we are hopeless and helpless sinners, and therefore unable to do anything but one day slip and slide right down into hell if we continue to try and depend on ourselves to do anything.

Where is God in it/this, ect...? If it is all your own doing, or getting, and/or becoming, ect...?

Comments...?

Where is God? He is in Christ, redeeming sinners to Himself. We have to come, in our helpless and hopeless sinful state, deserving of nothing but hell, and to petition Him for grace and mercy to give us the new heart and spirit through the cross of Christ and His resurrection. Only then, can there be a future for us other than hell. Once we receive His grace and mercy, He fills us with the Holy Spirit, who then starts to work in us to conform us through the renewing of our minds to who Christ wants us to be.

God Bless![/QUOTE]

 

[Neogaia777]

Now I will try and address your issues.
We don't have any rights at all. That is the main issue. We have no right to heaven, a good life, happiness, or anything else. All we deserve is an eternity in hell. If we try to "do away" with our sin, we will fail, because being sinners is what we are, and what we do comes out of what we are. God doesn't need anything from us, so the only wages come from sin, and that is death and hell.

So to get rid of our sinful acts, we have to stop being a sinful person and we can't do that ourselves.

So that is the first point.


My first answer answers this question as well. We can't become stronger, overcome our enemy or make him submit to us.


We don't get any power at all. We need a new heart and spirit, and we can't create that ourselves. We need for God to convert us, give us a new heart and spirit.


Because we are hopeless and helpless sinners, and therefore unable to do anything but one day slip and slide right down into hell if we continue to try and depend on ourselves to do anything.


Where is God? He is in Christ, redeeming sinners to Himself. We have to come, in our helpless and hopeless sinful state, deserving of nothing but hell, and to petition Him for grace and mercy to give us the new heart and spirit through the cross of Christ and His resurrection. Only then, can there be a future for us other than hell. Once we receive His grace and mercy, He fills us with the Holy Spirit, who then starts to work in us to conform us through the renewing of our minds to who Christ wants us to be.

God Bless!

We need power to repent, and I'm asking if we need to repent to get power...?

God Bless!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We need power to repent, and I'm asking if we need to repent to get power...?

God Bless!

Repenting is a change of direction, and if that is to try and please God then it is a dead work that doesn't please God. A sinner can repent of some of his sins but that doesn't stop him being a lost sinner. We don't need power to decide to believe the gospel and turn to Christ. It is that simple act that converts us. After we are converted, then we can start repenting, and it becomes a good work.

 

[A_Thinker]

Did he? How did he know that Jesus was God when he first saw Him? He didn't repent when he first saw Jesus, so that couldn't have happened!

Zacchaeus did repent in the context of his first encounter with Jesus. I think that he was inspired to do so ... by Jesus' own goodness ... and outreach to him.

If you think about it ... Jesus did almost the opposite of what society was doing ... shunning/shaming him. Jesus welcomed Zacchaeus into His presence ... and demonstrated that that he was of value to Him ...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Zacchaeus did repent in the context of his first encounter with Jesus. I think that he was inspired to do so ... by Jesus' own goodness ... and outreach to him.

If you think about it ... Jesus did almost the opposite of what society was doing ... shunning/shaming him. Jesus welcomed Zacchaeus into His presence ... and demonstrated that that he was of value to Him ...

Yep. Zack did get up the tree to get a better view of Jesus, and I think that was the first move from his part. Jesus responded by inviting him to lunch, and then Zack repented because of that acceptance, and without having to be told!

 

[A_Thinker]

Does "your" doing away with "your" sin, "earn" you the "right" to get into Heaven...?

And/or does "it" give you, or earn you, (the right), or make you, or cause you to (become) "stronger than", or somehow make you strong enough to overcome the enemy, and/or make or cause him to submit (to you?), and do (your?) "bidding", ect...?

Or cause you to have, or get, or gain "power" (over him) of some kind or some sort...? And, if so, from where (does that power come from)...?

And to the former right before this, also I ask "if so", how is it not "you" and all (your own) "doing", ect...?

Where is God in it/this, ect...? If it is all your own doing, or getting, and/or becoming, ect...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

You can't do away with your sin on your own. That's why Jesus came.

But ... if we start the medical treatment (for our spiritual natures) that Jesus provides ... we can gain the strength to enable us to become even more healthy.

That said, we never become healthy enough ... to go off of the treatment plan. Our own power is limited and it is all sourced in God. To the extent that we do "neglect" our treatment plan ... we remain spiritually weak and sickly.

The scriptures do not really testify to our having power over evil, ... but rather, we simply are given the power to RESIST evil ... in our own persons and environs.

Even the mightiest of the angels was circumspect when dealing with evil ... in full knowledge that only God wields the ultimate power to decisively rout it ...

Jude 1:9 But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.)

 

[Neogaia777]

Repenting is a change of direction, and if that is to try and please God then it is a dead work that doesn't please God. A sinner can repent of some of his sins but that doesn't stop him being a lost sinner. We don't need power to decide to believe the gospel and turn to Christ. It is that simple act that converts us. After we are converted, then we can start repenting, and it becomes a good work.

We don't do works to try and please God...?

What is the entirety of "believing in the gospel and turning to Christ"...? And is that "all that is required"...? Or is there "more", or not...?

Not so simple I'm afraid, my friend...

And, does "starting repenting" mean a (lifelong) "process"...? And not just a "one time and sometimes overnight thing", that is an/a (humble) attitude or (humble) demeanor, or (humble) state of mind...?

When is or does repenting, or repentance, or anything we might do for God, or in the name of God for ourselves or others, become a good, or otherwise "bad" work...?

What makes "the", or "any" "work", good, or otherwise, bad...? How do we know and how can we tell...?

God Bless!