Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

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ChicanaRose

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Also read the article in the link before it because the false analogy organ donation is a variant of Thompson's Violinist analogy. Both are refuted in logic courses.

Sample Q&A: The Kidney Donation Argument | Pro-Life Theory and Discussion Tactics

As far Augustine and Aquinas there are multiple posts with links. I trust you are reading them.

I received my master's in divinity from a Catholic Seminary with a focus in moral theology. I was taught by scholastic theology specialists. You are cherry picking the logic of the argument Aquinas makes. Because if he knew what we know now his argument aligns with pro-life views on it. It's a matter of taking his argument and supplying what became known.

You have to take the arguments of Augustine and Aquinas and apply them in light of the information they were missing.

Thank you. Those who are willing to hear will benefit from this article.
 
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Numbers511to31

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The bible is pro abortion. Numbers 5:11 - 31.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.
 
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DamianWarS

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

Adam and Eve were fully developed adults so they are not a good slice of when "ensoulment" takes place. for them, it seems to be link with their breath but developing babies in utero do not breath, their first breath occurs after birth, so there is an aspect of this that does not fit a developing baby in utero.

Lev 17:11 tells us life is in the blood and for this reason, it is forbidden to consume blood. So perhaps we could say the pumping heart is the life and ensoulment event since breath alone is incomplete without oxygenating blood and having it pumped throughout the circulatory system. However even this fails because the heart and lungs work differently in a developing baby in the womb. the lungs don't need oxygen as they do after birth and the heart does not function the same for example it does not need a separate pulmonary artery and aorta to pump blood in the lungs and this forms too after birth.

if we are to say ensoulment starts at the pumping of the heart then we are talking at 5 weeks. This would be the best example of oxygenated blood circulating throughout the body and the same product of breathing. But this isn't when you say is when ensoulment happens, to you it happened upon the 3ird trimester but the problem with this is it is an arbitrary moment with no real triggering of the ensoulment event. But you're not bold enough to say it is when a baby's first breath happens as this is too late.

you use a biblical definition to determine life may be terminated before ensoulment then use a culturally popular and very non-biblical moment when abortion is acceptable then fuse these together and call this ensoulment. This is not how bible interpretation works all you are doing is taking what you want and finding a place in scripture where this fits.

Tell me at which point does a woman no longer have dominion over her body? apparently 1st and 2nd trimester she is queen but upon the 3ird her rights are removed? why is this? what part of her body becomes different from the 2nd to the 3ird? what responsibly becomes different from the 2nd to 3ird? And at what point is the focus about Christ have authority over our bodies rather than ourselves?

You are going to have to stop trying to reconcile this with biblical teaching, the bible is not going to speak into this and all it will do is find confliction. Either value these aspects of the bible or don't but don't try and marry the two.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.
I must disagree with my entire being. It is not for mankind to manipulate God's wisdom and timing and purposefully destroy that which the Lord has purposely knit into the womb. The Lord is the only creator and author of life. You are thinking 100% like any human would who wants to control God for their convenience and limited understanding. Only God knows the big picture of why He knit that person in the womb. We must have fear the Lord as the beginning of wisdom and have total awe over the wonder that He alone is the creator. Yes, even if it means doing something very difficult and selfless like bearing a child (which should be the biggest blessing. If a newborn is left all alone without an older child or adult helping, the newborn will certainly die. Newborn children are just as helpless newborn would die just as those in the womb die at the hand of their caregiver. A temporary caregiver, does not have the right to play God and take away the unborn future adult that God has knit into her womb and that God says in Jeremiah 1:5 He knew that future unborn adult BEFORE HE formed him or her.
I am glad you were honest in expressing your opinion, but I must admit how seriously sad I am that you have convinced yourself that it ok for one human to own as property another human. When man thinks he can own another living child of God all that comes is horrible consequences. When women commit abortion the conscience is never again at peace. Because God has written His laws on our hearts. Many women who have aborted are humanlh will get angry, harden their hearts and lash out at the world. Others will have a softer heart and then turn to trying to destroy themselves.
 
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ChicanaRose

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And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.
Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

I have never seen this interpretation of Genesis 2:7. Not in commentaries, not from the pulpit, not even from the mouth of a liberal Christian. This is truly a first for me.
I think others have made their argument better than I ever could, and I can only hope that you will read them with an open heart.
 
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GenemZ

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Only the natural man would attempt to interpret Luke 1 as you have.

“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.”

That is not what was originally written by doctor Luke in the Greek as found in Luke 1:15.
The King James scholars had no axe to grind in their day about abortion. So, it was simply translated as the Greek stated.

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink
neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the
Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. "

( ek kolia... "out from" ) It never means "in."

The Greek word "from" is nothing like "in." Some translator has caused us a problem by not translating it correctly. His bias over ruled.

Young's Literal Translation =

"For he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong

drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full,
even from his mother's womb.



There is a lot of ignorance on both sides of the abortion debate. God will not honor good intentions. It must be accurate and sound before He will bless it.

Ek in the Greek never says "in." That was some scholar not being honest in translation.
 
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GenemZ

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you make an assertion about when a child is ensouled and then go to an argument from authority fallacy.

can you give us any biblical exegesis from the authorities you cited where God ensouls a child some time after conception? your citation of genesis 2:7 doesn't tell us anything as the first man adam was conceived differently from the rest of us.

BTW, 'fetus', you keep using that word. it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Genesis 2:7 reveals the mechanics of how God produces a person. God could have easily made the body not need to have the breath of life breathed into the body's nostrils. Both could have been done simultaneously. That would mean the soul is given at conception.

God wants us to think and analyze in order to understand His plan.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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Jersey, Genessis 2:7 is about a man being made from the dust of the Earth. Adam was never in a uterus, never a zygote, embryo, or fetus. He was just a man. Look at Jeremish 1:5 and tell me if it means we had souls at conception.

Jeremiah 1:5 does not prove we have souls at conception, just that God predestined the life of Jeremiah to be a prophet, which as a Calvinist I have no problem with.
 
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Strong in Him

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own,

So if a child - yes, child; a living being - hasn't developed enough to survive on its own, it can be disposed of?
Psalms 139:13, God sees, and created, the unborn child.

as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

She has rights over her own body; she also, imo, has a responsibility for the new life that is growing within her body. She may choose, for reasons of her own, to end that life; she is still ending a life.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

Well there you are then.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Psalm 139:13.
John the Baptist leapt in his mother's womb when he heard Mary's voice. Yes, that was in the 6th month - but it shows the baby was developed enough to hear and move.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Adam was the first person to be created - no one is made in that way today.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

An unborn child can feel pain etc from a few weeks.
I believe God sees, knows and cares about that unborn child.

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

It's obviously not a fully formed baby; it most certainly is the beginnings of a new life.

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

Yes - and if you find an acorn and tread on it, it will never become a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet.

That was his opinion, and that was then.
We have made huge advances and discoveries since then.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being.

That's a matter of opinion.
I read somewhere, and maybe someone else can verify this, that a fetus has certain features/organs after 8 weeks. Women who go for 12 week scans can hear a heartbeat.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

What's that got to do with it?
Unless the organ in question is a kidney, or maybe liver since that can grow, the girlfriend would need all her other organs for herself. If she was able to donate a particular organ to save her boyfriend's life, and she loved him, she probably would. But doctor's would need to consider her own health and well being too.
Even dead people can't have their organs ripped from them without consent; live people certainly can't.

But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

No one would even consider such a thing.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

No one can force a woman to continue with a pregnancy.
They would end it with her consent; they would still be ending a life that had begun to form and grow.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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I don’t think so. Things such as prison, or ankle monitors that parolees are forced to wear, are restrictions on body autonomy.

So is the case of conjoined twins. One twin may not kill the other, merely because the other twin’s presence causes his bodily freedom to be restricted.

The question is whether unborn children are human beings that are entitled to the same rights as other members of the human community. You have not proven that they are not (despite your specious attempts at using the Bible and the ECF to do so). You have merely established that we do not know, and potentially killing a human being is not justified by inconvenience.

By give up bodily autonomy, I mean be forced to have their body used as a vessel for other purposes, such as the harvesting of an organ, or the forced implantation of something.
 
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I totally agree!
The original "cardiovascular system" post was really "out there". The poster was going out of his/her way to justify abortion. If one had to go that far and state a technicality, it's obvious he/she knows abortion is wrong but has to justify it possibly to fit his/her political beliefs. I think a Christian's politics plays a major part in how far he will go to explain or justify abortion. I am surprised that point wasn't raised more.
Yeah, I dont think any of the pro-abortion crowd saw that post. I am pretty sure I am on all their ignore lists because I make posts like that.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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Adam and Eve were fully developed adults so they are not a good slice of when "ensoulment" takes place. for them, it seems to be link with their breath but developing babies in utero do not breath, their first breath occurs after birth, so there is an aspect of this that does not fit a developing baby in utero.

Lev 17:11 tells us life is in the blood and for this reason, it is forbidden to consume blood. So perhaps we could say the pumping heart is the life and ensoulment event since breath alone is incomplete without oxygenating blood and having it pumped throughout the circulatory system. However even this fails because the heart and lungs work differently in a developing baby in the womb. the lungs don't need oxygen as they do after birth and the heart does not function the same for example it does not need a separate pulmonary artery and aorta to pump blood in the lungs and this forms too after birth.

if we are to say ensoulment starts at the pumping of the heart then we are talking at 5 weeks. This would be the best example of oxygenated blood circulating throughout the body and the same product of breathing. But this isn't when you say is when ensoulment happens, to you it happened upon the 3ird trimester but the problem with this is it is an arbitrary moment with no real triggering of the ensoulment event. But you're not bold enough to say it is when a baby's first breath happens as this is too late.

you use a biblical definition to determine life may be terminated before ensoulment then use a culturally popular and very non-biblical moment when abortion is acceptable then fuse these together and call this ensoulment. This is not how bible interpretation works all you are doing is taking what you want and finding a place in scripture where this fits.

Tell me at which point does a woman no longer have dominion over her body? apparently 1st and 2nd trimester she is queen but upon the 3ird her rights are removed? why is this? what part of her body becomes different from the 2nd to the 3ird? what responsibly becomes different from the 2nd to 3ird? And at what point is the focus about Christ have authority over our bodies rather than ourselves?

You are going to have to stop trying to reconcile this with biblical teaching, the bible is not going to speak into this and all it will do is find confliction. Either value these aspects of the bible or don't but don't try and marry the two.

In the third trimester, the baby is viable and can survive outside the womb, which is why it would be murder, in my opinion, to have an abortion at that late stage.

The difference is that a baby expelled from the womb in the fist and second trimesters is not viable, as such, it is not murder, at that time.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Genesis 2:7 reveals the mechanics of how God produces a person.
it only reveals how the first man was made. every person is not created from the dust of the field, has life breathed into their nostrils, nor are we conceived fully grown. this is not the mechanics of how every human being was conceived after adam and eve.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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Yes, of innocent living blood. If a scientist were to shed the blood of a donated corpse for medical research, it would not bother the Lord.

And fetuses in the early trimesters are not living yet, as they do not have souls.

Third-trimester abortion for reasons other than to save the mother's life are heinous and murder, and I would be opposed to that.
You absolutely do not know that the child does not have a soul. You quote regarding Adam and yet God was not referring to Adam in Psalm 139:14-16 or Jeremiah 1:5. Only God knows. For all the women out there who have suffered through miscarriages, you are telling them that they will never see that child that they longed for and lost because their child did not have a soul? You do not know. Abortion is the game of the devil who loves when people do things out of fear and selfishness. Unrepentant fornication is a sin that 1 Corithians 6:9 says is a sin that will keep one entering the kingdom of God. So perhaps if people would use their energy to teach others about the dangers and sinfulness of fornication, than there would not be so many unwanted pregnancies and therefore so many abortions. Fornication is rampant and is a huge problem because many Christians have just accepted it as the new normal. Abortion is mainly by the numbers a result of the rampant fornication of our times. God is not ok with fornication and certainly would never be ok with abortion.
 
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chilehed

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Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.
And an unborn child is a distinct, living human being from the moment of conception. Therefore, abortion is murder at any stage of pregnancy.
 
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The Greek word "from" is nothing like "in."
doesn't have to be the word "in" as far as translation. it can refer to "during or from the time" as a transliteration. this would be substantiated in the fact that john leaped in the womb while hearing about his savior from mary.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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And an unborn child is a distinct, living human being from the moment of conception. Therefore, abortion is murder at any stage of pregnancy.

Augustine and Aquinas would like a word, so would Genesis 2:7, which shows that only people with souls count as living human beings, and ensoulment doesn’t happen until sometime after formation and conception.
 
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lismore

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Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Hello. But then there is Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

God Bless You
 
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SPF

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Augustine and Aquinas would like a word, so would Genesis 2:7, which shows that only people with souls count as living human beings, and ensoulment doesn’t happen until sometime after formation and conception.
There you go again ignoring all the posts that deal with those points. You clearly are not here to do anything but pontificate and repeat.
 
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chilehed

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Augustine and Aquinas would like a word, so would Genesis 2:7, which shows that only people with souls count as living human beings, and ensoulment doesn’t happen until sometime after formation and conception.
The soul, by definition, is the principal that animates a living body. The unborn child, by definition, is a living body from the moment of conception. Therefore ensoulment, by definition, occurs at the moment of conception.

Augustine and Acquinas didn't have the benefit of the next thousand+ years of scientific advancement. If you had ever actually studied their writings for yourself, you'd realize that they can't be reasonably used to justify.abortion.
 
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