War Crime Pardons

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
6,813
7,420
PA
✟317,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
President Trump recently pardoned Lt. Michael Behenna, convicted of killing an Iraqi prisoner, and appears to be preparing to pardon several others convicted or accused of similar acts.

This undermines the UCMJ - under which all but the civilian contractors were charged - as well as damages our credibility and good name as a nation. It sends a message to the troops that this sort of behavior is tolerated by their commander-in-chief and that they should not bother to report it. There's already a culture within the military, and certain units especially, that discourages "tattling." See the story behind Eddie Gallagher's accusation for an example, where the troops that reported him were told that their careers would suffer for it if they pushed the issue. Reinforcing that culture will only be hurtful in the long run.

Further, it suggests to other nations that our soldiers are free to commit crimes - both against combatants and civilians - without facing punishment. This damages any goodwill we might try to cultivate with civilians in countries where our troops are stationed.
 

Goonie

Not so Mystic Mog.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
10,050
9,608
47
UK
✟1,141,465.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
President Trump recently pardoned Lt. Michael Behenna, convicted of killing an Iraqi prisoner, and appears to be preparing to pardon several others convicted or accused of similar acts.

This undermines the UCMJ - under which all but the civilian contractors were charged - as well as damages our credibility and good name as a nation. It sends a message to the troops that this sort of behavior is tolerated by their commander-in-chief and that they should not bother to report it. There's already a culture within the military, and certain units especially, that discourages "tattling." See the story behind Eddie Gallagher's accusation for an example, where the troops that reported him were told that their careers would suffer for it if they pushed the issue. Reinforcing that culture will only be hurtful in the long run.

Further, it suggests to other nations that our soldiers are free to commit crimes - both against combatants and civilians - without facing punishment. This damages any goodwill we might try to cultivate with civilians in countries where our troops are stationed.
Don't be surprised when people who in other threads are claiming to be pro_life, demonstrate that falsehoood on this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
President Trump recently pardoned Lt. Michael Behenna, convicted of killing an Iraqi prisoner, and appears to be preparing to pardon several others convicted or accused of similar acts.
Good for him. Other presidents pardon people simply as a political favor to someone or other. It is about time that people who were wrongly convicted were shown some mercy.
 
Upvote 0

Paulos23

Never tell me the odds!
Mar 23, 2005
8,168
4,434
Washington State
✟309,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Good for him. Other presidents pardon people simply as a political favor to someone or other. It is about time that people who were wrongly convicted were shown some mercy.
How do you know they where wrongly convicted?
 
Upvote 0

Sparagmos

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2018
8,632
7,319
52
Portland, Oregon
✟278,062.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Good for him. Other presidents pardon people simply as a political favor to someone or other. It is about time that people who were wrongly convicted were shown some mercy.
He was wrongly convicted?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RocksInMyHead
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
as well as damages our credibility and good name as a nation.
??
People from other countries apparently lost all hope in the usa decades ago - there is no "good name as a nation" - no integrity for a long time already ....
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tall73
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Further, it suggests to other nations that our soldiers are free to commit crimes - both against combatants and civilians - without facing punishment. This damages any goodwill we might try to cultivate with civilians in countries where our troops are stationed.
z "OUR SOLDIERS" ADMIT freely that they committed crimes against civiliams, for many decades now,
from vitnm to afgan to irq to krea !!! UNDER ORDERS! (not only "without facing punishment") !
 
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
6,813
7,420
PA
✟317,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
??
People from other countries apparently lost all hope in the usa decades ago - there is no "good name as a nation" - no integrity for a long time already ....
So we should just give up then? It's possible to rehabilitate our reputation - it was generally improving under Obama, for example. Pardoning convicted war criminals isn't how to do that though.

z "OUR SOLDIERS" ADMIT freely that they committed crimes against civiliams, for many decades now,
from vitnm to afgan to irq to krea !!! UNDER ORDERS! (not only "without facing punishment") !
Again, this is a situation we should endeavor to fix, not perpetuate.
 
Upvote 0

JosephZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2017
2,995
2,860
Davao City
Visit site
✟226,579.00
Country
Philippines
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
"It's insulting to all veterans who served honorably when the president pardons war criminals. But I wouldn't expect him to understand that, because he's never upheld American values." -- Bronze Star recipient Seth Moulton former Captain USMC, who served four tours of duty in Iraq from 2003 to 2008.

Sums up my sentiments pretty well.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
For many decades now the USA has refused to sign treaties to permit international courts to try US soldiers or civilians for war crimes or crimes against humanity. This places nationalism above justice and this recent pardon simply flaunts that and further destroys international respect for the USA.
 
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
6,813
7,420
PA
✟317,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
To me this is as if, or like if a member of Russia "in good standing" there, (communist or other) said
that they were coming here (to the usa) to "fix" what is wrong, to make the usa better place....

Sorry, no. That doesn't work.
What does this even mean?

Edit: If you're trying to say that these people were convicted by international courts, you'd be wrong. The soldiers were tried by the US military justice system, and the civilian contractor was convicted in federal court.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Good for him. Other presidents pardon people simply as a political favor to someone or other. It is about time that people who were wrongly convicted were shown some mercy.

On what basis do you claim they were wrongly convicted?
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟992,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
President Trump recently pardoned Lt. Michael Behenna, convicted of killing an Iraqi prisoner, and appears to be preparing to pardon several others convicted or accused of similar acts.
This undermines the UCMJ - under which all but the civilian contractors were charged - as well as damages our credibility and good name as a nation. It sends a message to the troops that this sort of behavior is tolerated by their commander-in-chief and that they should not bother to report it. There's already a culture within the military, and certain units especially, that discourages "tattling." See the story behind Eddie Gallagher's accusation for an example, where the troops that reported him were told that their careers would suffer for it if they pushed the issue. Reinforcing that culture will only be hurtful in the long run.
Further, it suggests to other nations that our soldiers are free to commit crimes - both against combatants and civilians - without facing punishment. This damages any goodwill we might try to cultivate with civilians in countries where our troops are stationed.
Were you on the courts martial board and reviewed all the evidence?
How do you know they where wrongly convicted?
How do you know they were not wrongly convicted?
There is a series on TV where a group of people review convictions for the purpose of getting prisoners released who were wrongfully convicted. The judges and persecuting attorneys adamantly maintain that they were lawfully convicted but in many cases the investigators find exculpatory evidence which was either ignored or suppressed.
I just watched one a night or two ago where a "witness" originally claimed that the suspect confessed everything to him in jail. The investigators questioned him and he admitted that the police fed him all the detail about the crime that the suspect supposedly said.
I don't think anyone posting in this thread can make an informed opinion on any of this.
FYI I am retired military I was courts martialed early in my career when I had been in the military for less than 4 years and I served as a defense counsel later in my career, when I had more than 15 years service. As a commander I referred service members for courts martial and appeared as a witness.
 
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
20,775
17,080
✟1,389,771.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
From the linked article:

Mr. Mansur was bound and blindfolded during the interrogation, which lasted between two and three minutes, according to the court filing. Mr. Mansur’s clothes were cut off with a knife.

“This is your last chance to tell the information or you will die,” Lieutenant Behenna told Mr. Mansur, according to a military court filing. Mr. Mansur said that he would talk, it said, but Lieutenant Behenna shot him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RichardY

Holotheist. Whig. Monarchical Modalism.
Apr 11, 2019
266
72
34
Spalding
✟16,984.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
If I were in that situation. I'd be inclined to execute all prisoners in the field, orders or not. They could be concealing a grenade or IED. If they can not be easily detained, they may also report the squads position and tie up personnel. If they need information, they should use whatever means necessary, whilst retaining discipline.

The USA military should be securing the borders of the USA. Same with the UK. Those that died, have died for worst than nothing. Saddam Hussein should have been left in charge.

If they're good people and not atheists, they're going to heaven anyway.

500,000 children die due to lack of chlorine, in water decontamination due to sanctions, after The Gulf War and that's not a bigger issue. "We think the price is worth it."
 
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
6,813
7,420
PA
✟317,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Were you on the courts martial board and reviewed all the evidence?
Since when is that a requirement for being critical of a decision to pardon someone?

How do you know they were not wrongly convicted?
There is a series on TV where a group of people review convictions for the purpose of getting prisoners released who were wrongfully convicted. The judges and persecuting attorneys adamantly maintain that they were lawfully convicted but in many cases the investigators find exculpatory evidence which was either ignored or suppressed.
I just watched one a night or two ago where a "witness" originally claimed that the suspect confessed everything to him in jail. The investigators questioned him and he admitted that the police fed him all the detail about the crime that the suspect supposedly said.
In general, I tend to agree with you on this, however, there are several irregularities here.

1. Not all of the cases have been tried yet, so no one has seen all of the evidence. Preemptive pardons (e.g. Joe Arpaio, Richard Nixon) can be nothing but politically-motivated. And I don't see what the political benefit is here beyond feeding Trump's base.

2. Those pushing for the pardons are not advocacy groups like the one you mentioned. So far, the main people I've seen supporting them have been family members (obviously), congressmen, and a Fox News host. These are not unbiased sources.

3. In a couple of the cases, the accused has admitted to the crimes of which he was accused/convicted - even on live TV.

4. Normally, advocates submit requests for pardons/clemency to the Justice Department, which then reviews the cases and passes those that it believes has merit on to the President. In these cases, Trump requested the paperwork directly, bypassing the review process.


I don't think anyone posting in this thread can make an informed opinion on any of this.
While none of us can say for certain whether or not these men are truly guilty, I think it's reasonable to comment on the message that these pardons send given the publicly-available evidence and the results of those trials that have already been completed, as well as the irregularity of the process by which they are being pushed through.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
What?
Are you saying that
We’re the ‘good guys, therefore anything we do is ‘okay’?”

Pretty much one half of the universal rationalization for any atrocity... "they do horrible things so they deserve it!" being the other.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Gone and hopefully forgotten.
Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
15,312
14,321
MI - Michigan
✟498,114.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
This undermines the UCMJ -

It does not undermine the UCMJ. As the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, the President of the United States has the authority under both the Constitution and the UCMJ to issue pardons.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
6,813
7,420
PA
✟317,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
As the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, the President of the United States has the authority under both the Constitution and the UCMJ to issue pardons.
Having the authority to do something doesn't mean that using that authority won't undermine the process. In this situation, for example, two of the cases that Trump is considering have yet to go to trial. This means that by preemptively pardoning them, Trump would be expressing a complete lack of faith in the military justice system (or an explicit approval of their actions - which weakens the UCMJ, under which they were charged).

I think this article explains my position pretty well: https://www.justsecurity.org/64185/...-military-justice-and-military-effectiveness/
 
  • Agree
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0