Crumpled Clothes on Sidewalk after Rapture?

_Dave_

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Dave, let me explain why I see John 17 differently.

Jesus starts off praying for the Apostles and other disciples of the time but broadens it to all "who will believe in Me".

Sure, there is no question that he adds believers in general to His prayer after the part about protecting His disciples from evil while they carry out their great commission.

But nowhere after verse 20 referenced in your reply is there a similar prayer from Jesus to specifically protect the ones he is praying about from the evils of the world as He does earlier in the prayer specifically for His disciples.

The main thing, however, is what I'm constantly harping on: If there appears to be a contradiction or some confusion with God's word, then we must do diligent study to harmonize that Scripture with the whole counsel of God.

And, Jesus would not contradict Himself with the matter of the rapture when He specifically instructed Paul to teach it to the early churches. So, in no case can John 17:15 be Jesus refuting His own prophesy about the church being caught up to meet Him.
 
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keras

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And, Jesus would not contradict Himself with the matter of the rapture when He specifically instructed Paul to teach it to the early churches.
Where?
And don't quote 1 Thess 4:17, because that prophecy is about the Return of Jesus to the earth for His Millennium reign. He sends His angels to gather His own people to Him, Matthew 24:30-31, and they become His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10
The 'rapture to heaven' is never prophesied by Jesus or Paul.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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A number of movies based on the idea of a future Rapture show crumpled clothes on a sidewalk or other places after the person disappears. This goes along with driver-less cars, pilot-less planes and so forth. This was done in the 2014 Left Behind movie with Nicholas Cage, for instance, and was well known before that movie came out.
.

Luke 21:27 And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud< νεφέλῃ 3507> with power and glory, much.

Acts 1:9 And these things saying, of them looking He was taken/lifted up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight/eyes

Revelation 14:14
And I saw and behold! a cloud<νεφέλη 3507>, white and upon the cloud one sitting like-as Son of Man, having upon the head of Him a crown of gold and a sharp sickle in His hands.

Here the 2 witnesses are being observed by their enemies going up to heaven. Would one think they are ascending naked at that time?

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great Voice out of the heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" and they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies observed them.

rapture clothes on ground.png
 
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Dale

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Luke 21:27 And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud< νεφέλῃ 3507> with power and glory, much.

Acts 1:9 And these things saying, of them looking He was taken/lifted up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight/eyes

Revelation 14:14
And I saw and behold! a cloud<νεφέλη 3507>, white and upon the cloud one sitting like-as Son of Man, having upon the head of Him a crown of gold and a sharp sickle in His hands.

Here the 2 witnesses are being observed by their enemies going up to heaven. Would one think they are ascending naked at that time?

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great Voice out of the heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" and they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies observed them.

View attachment 256414


Does anyone consider the taking up of the two witnesses to be a prototype for a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming)? As far as I know no one does. It is simply assumed to be a unique event.

I like the cartoon.
 
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Dale

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You are misunderstanding the timing of the woes. Those do not trigger the beginning of the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

There is nothing in the text of Revelation referring to the confirmation of the covenant.

The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is solely in Daniel9 as far as the 70 weeks is concerned.

Confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, a law that Moses made of all future leaders of Israel. It is a perceptual requirement Moses made. But must be made from the place of God's choosing. Which the Jews take to be the temple mount.


You are saying that the whole process starts with a covenant that the Antichrist makes with the nations. A number of nations must be involved, we don't know exactly how many. Do we have any idea of what must be in this treaty? If we don't know what's in it, how will we know when it happens?
 
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Dale

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Here's something you can count on, Dale, with 100% absolute certainty.

The 7 years begin right after the Gog/Magog event. Because in Ezekiel 39:21-29, 7 years later, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth and recounting the past 2000 years.

From that, there are a couple of options that might take place - regarding a temple.

1. It could be built beside the Dome of the Rock - one theory.
2. If not, it could be built, as a downsized minimum size, right after Gog/Magog, in order to expedite resumption of the animal sacrifices, on the premise that the grander size would be finished later.

Right now, we just don't know which option (or another option, I have not considered) will take place.

The Antichrist is basically the King of Israel - "Anti", instead of and against Jesus, the rightful king of Israel.

Following Gog/Magog, the Jews will think the prince who shall come, is their messiah, and that person will be anointed the King of Israel. That's what actually makes him the Antichrist.

So envision all of those things to take place following Gog/Magog. Which a lot of the players are posturing over there right now.


Dougg: <<The Antichrist is basically the King of Israel - "Anti", instead of and against Jesus, the rightful king of Israel. >>

The Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox tradition is that the Antichrist will be a Jew born in Israel. I don't see that in any of the prophecies. Daniel says that he will come from "a small people." Daniel doesn't say that he is a Jew. As far as I know, the idea that the Antichrist puts himself in place of Jesus is part of the same tradition. As far as I can tell, the whole notion of an AC who is a Jew born in Israel who puts himself in place of the real Jesus is a myth concocted from the Roman Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox tradition of antisemitism. First, blame the Jews. I know of nothing in Scripture to back up any of these notions.

I would warn you against these ideas. If there is any hint of truth in these ideas, let them prove it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Does anyone consider the taking up of the two witnesses to be a prototype for a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming)? As far as I know no one does. It is simply assumed to be a unique event.

I like the cartoon.
That is an interesting thought.
The Resurrection of them is similar to that of Lazarus in John 11 and Luke 16:22.

Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

John 11:
39 Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone.
Martha is saying to Him, the sister of the one having deceased, "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a great Voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:22
Became yet to be dying the poor-one, and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was buried.

The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Yeshua. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades when he died.

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God:
===============================================
1 Thessalonians 4:16
because the Lord Himself, in a shout, in chief-messenger's voice, and in a-trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise/ἀναστήσονται<450> first

And like Lazarus in Luke 16:2, they were not buried but ascended straight to heaven:

Revelation 11
:
9 And are observing out of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations the bodies of them three and half days, and the bodies of them not they suffer to be placed into tomb.
11 And after the three days and half-equal a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead not live until should be being finished<5055> the thousand years,
This is the first Resurrection<386>
 
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ewq1938

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Does anyone consider the taking up of the two witnesses to be a prototype for a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming)?


The rapture is to gather together the living saints who do not die or resurrect. The two prophets died and are resurrected before being taken to heaven. So, while part of it is the same, part isn't so it's not exactly a prototype of the rapture but does remind me of Christ's ascension into heaven since he died and resurrected and then was caught up to heaven.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Also, those living people don't get caught up to heaven as in the 3rd heaven but just to the clouds of the Earth so the destination is different than the two prophets as well.
 
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Douggg

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You are saying that the whole process starts with a covenant that the Antichrist makes with the nations. A number of nations must be involved, we don't know exactly how many. Do we have any idea of what must be in this treaty? If we don't know what's in it, how will we know when it happens?
Not a covenant with the nations. The covenant referred to in Daniel 9:27 is the Mt. Sinai covenant.

When Daniel was praying, he lamented that his ancestors had transgressed the Mt. Sinai covenant and reaped the negative things that God said would happen if they did.

Confirming the covenant for 7 years:

Back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, as the children of Israel were about to enter the promised land, the second generation as the first generation died out for refusing to enter for fear of the giants, Moses made a forever law for the future leaders of Israel to give a speech to the nation of Israel, about all that the children of Israel went through to enter the promised land.

The interval for the speech was 7 years, from the place of God's choosing of where the speech is to be given. What the speech amounts to is confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

So the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is not with the nations. It is the Mt. Sinai covenant.
______________________________________________________________________

Which the Jews take the temple mount as the place where the speech is to be given. Of course that can't happen as long as the muslims have a presence on the temple mount.

Following Gog/Magog, the muslims have been removed, and the Jews will think they are on the doorstep of the messianic age. The prince who shall come will appear to them to be their messiah, and he is the one who will give the speech, confirming the Mt Sinai covenant for the 7 years as Moses required.
 
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Douggg

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Dougg: <<The Antichrist is basically the King of Israel - "Anti", instead of and against Jesus, the rightful king of Israel. >>

The Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox tradition is that the Antichrist will be a Jew born in Israel. I don't see that in any of the prophecies. Daniel says that he will come from "a small people." Daniel doesn't say that he is a Jew. As far as I know, the idea that the Antichrist puts himself in place of Jesus is part of the same tradition. As far as I can tell, the whole notion of an AC who is a Jew born in Israel who puts himself in place of the real Jesus is a myth concocted from the Roman Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox tradition of antisemitism. First, blame the Jews. I know of nothing in Scripture to back up any of these notions.

I would warn you against these ideas. If there is any hint of truth in these ideas, let them prove it.
I don't know where the person will be born, but since he comes out of the sea (the nations), then that points to coming out of somewhere other than Israel. The false prophet, on the other hand, will emerge from Israel.

There are two critical things to know about the person who becomes the Antichrist.

Those two things are that he will be (1) King of Israel and (2) King of the Roman Empire.

Most of the prophecies are tied to him being the King of the Roman Empire. That is he is King of the fourth Kingdom in Daniel 7. And is the forthcoming 7th king in Revelation 17:10, who later becomes the 8th king in Revelation 17:11.

Of course the Roman Empire has had many more kings. The distinguishing factor though is 6 of the historic kings were of one family - the Julio-Claudians, the Caesar family. So the person will be of that bloodline.
____________________________________________________________________

The King of Israel is easy to see as becoming the king of the country of Israel over there right now. The Jews thinking he is their messiah.

The King of the Roman empire, we have to look as being the leader of the EU. Since the ten kings in Revelation 17:17 give their kingdom to him after he becomes the beast, we have to see some changes in the EU structure so that the ten kings (leader) form of government comes about.

Which to me is why it so important to watch what happens with Brexit and where that leads.
_____________________________________________________________________

I made this chart, to show the path of the person down to the beginning of the great tribulation.

On the left is him as the King of Israel. On the right is him as the King of the Roman Empire.

upload_2019-5-12_22-20-35.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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No singular person comes out of the sea. The singular person is the one coming out of the earth, the leader of the first (empire) beast.
One king in Revelation 13, as the first beast. Although there are ten kings + another 7 kings associated with him, by the ten horns and seven heads.

The second beast coming out of the earth, in Revelation 13, is not a king, but a (false) prophet.
 
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tranquil

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You are saying that the whole process starts with a covenant that the Antichrist makes with the nations. A number of nations must be involved, we don't know exactly how many. Do we have any idea of what must be in this treaty? If we don't know what's in it, how will we know when it happens?

He will be an idolater & the messiah of Israel. Ezekiel 44
4Then he brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple, and I looked, and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple of the Lord. And I fell on my face. 5And the Lord said to me, “Son of man, mark well, see with your eyes, and hear with your ears all that I shall tell you concerning all the statutes of the temple of the Lord and all its laws. And mark well the entrance to the temple and all the exits from the sanctuary.
6And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations,

7 in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations.

8 And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.

As Doug mentioned, it will be the Mosaic covenant (verse 7 above) and the institution of the debt Jubilee. The messiah/ anointed one will enact the Jubilee referenced by Jesus ('your redemption draws near') in Luke 21:28 & Luke 4:18-19. (normally this would occur on Yom Kippur, but the antichrist thinks to change times - which apparently also manifests as faked time travel.)

The anointed one would be the 'antichrist' as in John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

At verse 8 above, this is the same as in Revelation 11:1-2, the outer court is given over to the nations/ Gentiles/ foreigners/ 'aliens'. This action occurs on 24 Kislev because this is when the temple begins to be built (Haggai 2:18) & when you add the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses + 3.5 days laying dead (Revelation 11:9-11) you get to 17 Iyyar which is the start of the 'days of Noah'/ 7th Trumpet/ kingdom of heaven Matthew 24:37-38 (Genesis 7:11 & Genesis 7:24; 17 Iyar through 17 Tishri.)
 
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tranquil

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Does anyone consider the taking up of the two witnesses to be a prototype for a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming)? As far as I know no one does. It is simply assumed to be a unique event.

I like the cartoon.

It seems like you believe that people are 'whisked away'?

It is more like a logic tree. If one worships the antichrist, they are gathered (and then they will be burned at the appropriate time.) If one rejects the antichrist, and remains faithful to Jesus, you will be gathered to other like minded people. (1st Trumpet) (the dead in heaven, the living on earth).

Out of this gathered group, there is one more test to pass, that of the false prophet who will be part of this ostensibly faithful group. (an evil Maccebeus if you will)
 
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_Dave_

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Does anyone consider the taking up of the two witnesses to be a prototype for a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming)? As far as I know no one does. It is simply assumed to be a unique event.

In Revelation 11:12 the witnesses are told to come up to ascend into heaven. The Greek for that is anabaino; which is an entirely different meaning than the word harpazo that is used for the catching up, snatching, etc., of the believers during the rapture.

Being told to come up and ascend is a calmly performed, cooperative effort between the Great Voice and the witnesses. Being snatched up is a sudden, almost violent action completely without any effort by the ones who are being caught up.

To further illustrate the meaning of anabaino:

• went up G305 straightway out of the water:
• he went up G305 into a mountain
• take up the fish that first cometh up; G305
• Jesus going up G305 to Jerusalem
• we go up G305 to Jerusalem
• straightway coming up G305 out of the water
• he went up G305 unto them into the ship​

IOW, a fairly benign, calm, cooperative effort.

Then, the word harpazo is used in an entirely different manner:

• Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up G726 together with them in the clouds
• the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take G726 G726
• then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away G726 that which was sown in his heart
• Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take G726 G726
• and the wolf catcheth G726 them
• neither shall G726 G726 them out of my hand
• commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take G726 G726
• pulling G726 them out of the fire​

In every instance where harpazo is used the denotation is invariably a sudden, sometimes violent snatching up, sometimes against one's will.

Besides, the two witnesses can't be a prototype of the rapture because the rapture will have occurred long before the witnesses make their appearance on the scene.
 
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ewq1938

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In Revelation 11:12 the witnesses are told to come up to ascend into heaven. The Greek for that is anabaino; which is an entirely different meaning than the word harpazo that is used for the catching up, snatching, etc., of the believers during the rapture.

Being told to come up and ascend is a calmly performed, cooperative effort between the Great Voice and the witnesses. Being snatched up is a sudden, almost violent action completely without any effort by the ones who are being caught up.

To further illustrate the meaning of anabaino:

• went up G305 straightway out of the water:
• he went up G305 into a mountain
• take up the fish that first cometh up; G305
• Jesus going up G305 to Jerusalem
• we go up G305 to Jerusalem
• straightway coming up G305 out of the water
• he went up G305 unto them into the ship​

IOW, a fairly benign, calm, cooperative effort.

You left out this verse:

Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up G305, and choked them:

The two words have the same meaning, to go up in a variety of ways and can be good and peaceful or related to some violent or forceful action.
 
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Douggg

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The first beast has no singular person or king. That person comes afterward, the second beast who is a individual person.
This is what it says about the first beast...

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


In Revelation 16, the unclean spirits came out of the mouth of the beast, our of the mouth of the false prophet, out of the mouth of the dragon.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

They are all three - persons.

first beast - 8th king
second beast - false prophet
dragon - Satan
 
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Ronald

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"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor. 15:51-53
This is the moment that all Christian souls (whether dead or alive) have been waiting for. We have faith in the resurrection and will receive new eternal bodies at this time. Some say this "last trumpet" is some unique separate trump of God apart from a series of trumpets and/or maybe the last trumpet during the Feast of Trumpets. I believe it is the SEVENTH TRUMPET in Rev.11:15. This is the rapture (meaning to be caught up into heaven suddenly).

This event is also described in other scriptures:
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:16, 17

"Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left." Matt. 24:40, 41


There is no separation between the Second Coming and the rapture - these verses clearly state that when Jesus comes, we go!
What happens at the last (7th) trumpet?
1. The mystery of God is revealed. (Rev. 10:7 - another vantage point of this event)
2. Christ appears ... and every eye sees Him. People ask, how is that possible? TV, cell phones, computers. Everyone will see, unless of course vision of Him transcends the Globe, which would be a miracle.
3. The resurrection of the Church occurs.
4. The Kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's.
5.The dead are resurrected and judged also. (see also Ezek. 37:5, 6)
6. We receive rewards according to our deeds.
7. The Temple of God is open in heaven. (Rev. 11:19; 15:5; 7:9)
8. the Bowls of God's wrath in full are released.

The only way a Pre-Trib rapture could happen that would include these collective events, is that all the trumpets are blown at once or rapidly. We are shown them one at a time and what they represent, but it doesn't mean the events within each trumpet must play out before the next one blows. They could be blown and accumulate of a period of 3 1/2 years. (not 7 years)
Otherwise, we must go through the first SIX TRUMPET events, which would support a Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath view.
Post Trib doesn't quite work with these above events taking places, since once the seventh trumpet is blown, there is still more - the SEVEN BOWLS OF WRATH. So the GT is not quite over yet.
Honestly, I would prefer a Pre-Trib scenario. The thing is, there is no time as we know it in Heaven, so these Trumpets, blown by angels ( that we probably don't hear) aren't on some human time schedule. They represent events, which develop and accumulate.
Btw, I'm not an adherent to the 70th week, I think that had to do with Christ's First Coming only. No third Temple necessary either - that would be a disgrace to God. So why would He ordain that ... with sacrifices too? I don't think so. Jesus abolished the earthy Temple and we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Jews, a remnant 1/3, will be saved during this time as well ... and tested. (Romans 11 confirms this.)
 
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_Dave_

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The only way a Pre-Trib rapture could happen that would include these collective events, is that all the trumpets are blown at once or rapidly.

... or one could interpret the seven trumpets in Revelation as the trumpet blasts announcing the judgments that are God's wrath, and the trumpet during the rapture as the hallelujah sound of joy for the saved that it is.

The rapture is not a time of judgment, the wrath is not a time of joy.

Different trumpets, different origin, different purposes, different meanings, different events.
 
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