How was the Protestant Canon Divinely Inspired?

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I have come to believe in the seven churches as congregations birthed as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

This is not to say the congregations are any certain denomination, but it is to say they came down in time. The first church was Messianic and it existed that way until the Apostle Paul. I believe most churches these days are Laodicean, except for those who have kept their traditions birthed to them in time.

The Protestant Canon, then, came out of Sardisean times, and was divinely inspired when Martin Luther heard these words, "The Just Shall Live By Faith."

So why did the Holy Spirit wait a thousand years to fix the canon?
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
So why did the Holy Spirit wait a thousand years to fix the canon?

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. - Genesis 6:3

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. - Revelation 2:7

Every generation is unique. The Spirit of the Lord also has a message for each generation. It is not an issue of fixing a cannon, it is an issue of fixing the changes in a generation.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. - Genesis 6:3

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. - Revelation 2:7

Every generation is unique. The Spirit of the Lord also has a message for each generation. It is not an issue of fixing a cannon, it is an issue of fixing the changes in a generation.

So is the canon not really important then?
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
So is the canon not really important then?

Well.... According to the congregation.... I know pastors with advanced degrees in religion who have no people skills. And then we have evangelist such as DL Moody who had a grade school education but excelled in people skills and did well. The Apostle Paul once said...

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

And then we had congregations in time who would kill over the Canon.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
So if the Apocrypha shouldn't have been in there, then why was it in there and what was the Holy Spirit doing for a thousand years? Did you even read the OP? This isn't the first time you've answered me without reading beforehand. From what I can tell, you're saying that Jerome was divinely inspired to suggest that the Apocrypha should be left out. And he managed to... suggest that? Is that your argument? That the Holy Spirit inspired one man to do something and the mission was not successful?

That some uninspired books were lumped together with inspired books for a period of time in church history doesn't suggest to me that the Holy Spirit was absent. The situation obviously got straightened out in the end.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Well.... According to the congregation.... I know pastors with advanced degrees in religion who have no people skills. And then we have evangelist such as DL Moody who had a grade school education but excelled in people skills and did well. The Apostle Paul once said...

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

And then we had congregations in time who would kill over the Canon.

I don't know what you are talking about.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
That some uninspired books were lumped together with inspired books for a period of time in church history doesn't suggest to me that the Holy Spirit was absent. The situation obviously got straightened out in the end.

This is not how argumentation works.

I'm granting you X and asking you to answer Y. And you're acting like you've done your job because you've got X ("The situation obviously got straightened out in the end."). So you've done nothing.

It's literally as though I'm talking to a flat earther, and I say something like, "Well if the earth is flat then what about the stars in the southern hemisphere?" And then he replies, "Well, we've already established the earth is flat so we're done here."

I'm already granting you that there is a "true" canon, BUT this is conditional. You're supposed to use what is given and then answer the actual question I have. You have not done so. Again, the question is,

"What was the Holy Spirit doing for a thousand years?"
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
A biblical canon or canon of scripture is a set of texts (or "books") which a particular religious community regards as authoritative scripture. - Biblical canon - Wikipedia

My biblical canon is the KJV of the bible, which has been around for about 500 years. There are other versions, most not too far apart from one another. At 7 billion copies sold (including close varients such as the NKJV), I believe the KJV has been promoted greatly by God's Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
A biblical canon or canon of scripture is a set of texts (or "books") which a particular religious community regards as authoritative scripture. - Biblical canon - Wikipedia

My biblical canon is the KJV of the bible, which has been around for about 500 years. There are other versions, most not too far apart from one another. At 7 billion copies sold (including close varients such as the NKJV), I believe the KJV has been promoted greatly by God's Holy Spirit.

Not relevant to my question. Thanks though.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
He was present working to preserve the church and the word of God. Both of these things still exist today!

This is the first paragraph of the OP:

"That which is excluded from a religious text is more important than that which is included. We can at least agree that this is true for Christianity, since any missionary would rather give out a text that only contains the Gospel of John rather than a text that contains all of the gospels, including the ones that were deemed heretical."

Did you catch that part? It was important.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
@Nihilist Virus , I am having trouble understanding what you thought the Holy Spirit needed to do with respect to the Apocrypha. The NT canon has never changed. Some groups have a slightly larger canon. For example the Ethiopian church includes more. But as far as I know the NT canon wasn't changed by the Reformation. In fact, I believe the Lutheran bibles sometimes include an apocrypha.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
@Nihilist Virus , I am having trouble understanding what you thought the Holy Spirit needed to do with respect to the Apocrypha. The NT canon has never changed. Some groups have a slightly larger canon. For example the Ethiopian church includes more. But as far as I know the NT canon wasn't changed by the Reformation. In fact, I believe the Lutheran bibles sometimes include an apocrypha.

Let's start with this. Do you think Christians would distribute Bibles that have the "correct" OT and NT canon, but then also the Book of Mormon added in?
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Let's start with this. Do you think Christians would distribute Bibles that have the "correct" OT and NT canon, but then also the Book of Mormon added in?
No, but there is a key difference. The books of the apocrypha harmonized theologically with the NT canon. The book of Mormon has greater theological differences. The apocrypha included the texts that were valued but didn't meet the higher standards required to be in the canon. The Wisdom of Solomon is a good example. Newly baptized Christians read the Wisdom of Solomon to teach them how to live. The text was not written by Solomon, so it couldn't be included in the NT canon.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No, but there is a key difference. The books of the apocrypha harmonized theologically with the NT canon. The book of Mormon has greater theological differences. The apocrypha included the texts that were valued but didn't meet the higher standards required to be in the canon. The Wisdom of Solomon is a good example. Newly baptized Christians read the Wisdom of Solomon to teach them how to live. The text was not written by Solomon, so it couldn't be included in the NT canon.

Categorically they are the same: not divinely inspired.

The apocryphal books make miraculous claims, so if they're not inspired, then they're just a bunch of false claims. Made-up lies. Right? No different from the Book of Mormon.

Why would the Holy Spirit want those things in the Bible? Why would a Protestant?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Categorically they are the same: not divinely inspired.

The apocryphal books make miraculous claims, so if they're not inspired, then they're just a bunch of false claims. Made-up lies. Right? No different from the Book of Mormon.

Why would the Holy Spirit want those things in the Bible? Why would a Protestant?
I think we need a specific list of the texts in question. I was reading the article in Wikipedia, and it is more complicated than I realized.

Not all apocryphal texts included miraculous claims. For example, the Wisdom of Solomon is similar to Proverbs.

Also some apocryphal texts were probably intended to be symbolic of deeper spiritual ideas, so the miraculous claims were stories to teach spiritual ideas.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I think we need a specific list of the texts in question. I was reading the article in Wikipedia, and it is more complicated than I realized.

Not all apocryphal texts included miraculous claims. For example, the Wisdom of Solomon is similar to Proverbs.

Also some apocryphal texts were probably intended to be symbolic of deeper spiritual ideas, so the miraculous claims were stories to teach spiritual ideas.

Miracles or not, it comes down to whether it's divinely inspired. There are a lot of eastern writings that are stylized as proverbs, and do not make factual claims. Would Christians include those since they have wisdom? No, definitely not. Because they're not thought to be divinely inspired.

The typical Protestant claim is that the Apocrypha is not divinely inspired. So it should not be in the Bible. For a thousand years, these documents were interspersed in the Old Testament. It wasn't until Martin Luther that they were "quarantined" into the middle between the OT and the NT. I keep asking why it took a thousand years for the Holy Spirit to do this. Getting no answers. Just people answering questions that no one asked.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Miracles or not, it comes down to whether it's divinely inspired. There are a lot of eastern writings that are stylized as proverbs, and do not make factual claims. Would Christians include those since they have wisdom? No, definitely not. Because they're not thought to be divinely inspired.

The typical Protestant claim is that the Apocrypha is not divinely inspired. So it should not be in the Bible. For a thousand years, these documents were interspersed in the Old Testament. It wasn't until Martin Luther that they were "quarantined" into the middle between the OT and the NT. I keep asking why it took a thousand years for the Holy Spirit to do this. Getting no answers. Just people answering questions that no one asked.
I think it would help if we can clarify the specific books. There are different definitions of apocrypha.

So let's say "deuterocanonical books of the Catholic bible":
Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia

- Tobit and Judith are inspiration religious fiction somewhat like Jonah.
- Maccabees are histories somewhat like the books of Kings.
- Wisdom of Solomon and Wisdom of Sirach are similar to Proverbs.
- Baruch is similar to the prophetic texts in the OT but not written by Baruch.
- additions to Esther and Daniel are fictions.

We also need to agree whether "canonical" means "literally historical" as modern day fundamentalists believe. Is it o.k. for the canon to contain fiction that has an underlying canonical teaching?
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
40
California
✟156,979.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I think it would help if we can clarify the specific books.

No, that won't help. It doesn't matter if it's the blueprints for cold fusion - if it's not the divine word of God, they don't want it in there. Doesn't matter what it says, who said it, or why it was said.

There are different definitions of apocrypha.

So let's say "deuterocanonical books of the Catholic bible":

Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia

- Tobit and Judith are inspiration religious fiction somewhat like Jonah.
- Maccabees are histories somewhat like the books of Kings.
- Wisdom of Solomon and Wisdom of Sirach are similar to Proverbs.
- Baruch is similar to the prophetic texts in the OT but not written by Baruch.
- additions to Esther and Daniel are fictions.

That's already how I defined it.

We also need to agree whether "canonical" means "literally historical" as modern day fundamentalists believe. Is it o.k. for the canon to contain fiction that has an underlying canonical teaching?

Canonical means "in the canon" and a book should only be in there if it is divinely inspired (whatever that even means). Jesus told parables that were not literal history but those sayings are canon.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Canonical means "in the canon" and a book should only be in there if it is divinely inspired (whatever that even means). Jesus told parables that were not literal history but those sayings are canon.
One purpose of canonization might be to give an authoritative collection of texts more gravity be disallowing additional texts. The idea that divine inspiration is the criteria for closing a canon suggests that God is no longer inspiring Christians. I would hope that Joel Osteen is praying for God's inspiration when he writes his books.

I don't know about the rest of it.
 
Upvote 0