Medical reasons to abort a pregnancy

[Archivist]

Apparently no pro-baby-murders want to accept the fact that no one has the right to intentionally kill an innocent human being.

Oh yes. lets just be rude and start throwing out insulting terms. Can't you engage in polite conversation?

 

[redleghunter]

Perhaps if you could provide a better example it could be discussed, but as it stands I can't think of an example and you have, unfortunately, not provided one that makes sense yet.

I think you addressed in your post the reality of the situation. A doctor can tell a mother to be that the chances of the baby's survival is minimal after birth. My friends ministered to a lady who was in such a situation. Others advised her to get an abortion but she held on to that hope the child would survive and he did for a month. She is also Lutheran and the baby was baptized days after birth.

When we met this lady at our friend's house she told us those few weeks with the child, although stressed and sorrowful, turned out to be loving and special as she got to love her son, hold him and be with him. Something she said she would never had been able to if she got the abortion.

 

[chilehed]

Oh yes. lets just be rude and start throwing out insulting terms.

If calling it what it is is insulting, then perhaps you should think about that.

There's nothing polite about intentionally killing an innocent baby, and what that is is murder.

 

[redleghunter]

My point was that doctors are not God and they don't know everything. Doctors are human. They are flawed and they have limited knowledge and understanding, no matter how smart they appear to be.

Yes doctor's have been known to be wrong.

 

[Archivist]

If calling it what it is is insulting, then perhaps you should think about that. There's nothing polite about intentionally killing an innocent baby, and what that is is murder.

No, you are wrong. Murder is a legal term. Murder "occurs when one human being unlawfully kills another human being." In the case of abortion there is no unlawful killing.

Again, we acn be polite in our discussions here. Sad that you cannot.

 

[Ronald]

Far too often pro-lifers claim the only medical reason to abort a pregnancy is a life-threatening condition affecting the mother that can't be treated ina way that saves the fetus. This is 100% false. No matter what, medical reasons for abortions go beyond the maternal emergencies and pregnancy-related conditions that only kill the mother and problems that can kill both of them. Maybe you do not call these abortions, but the result is the same - living mom and dead fetus. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

It's odd that you strongly believe in and occupy your time with saving cats ... even to write a book about It. Yet you are pro-choice. Cats or dogs live a short time, if a home can't be found and there are just an abundance of them, then euthanize them. What real value do they have sick, in a cage, without a home anyways? Is that heartless? You might say, they have rights. What about the unborn child, does it have rights to live, be loved, even for a short time? Could it be that God's whole purpose in sickness, suffering and death is to teach us mercy, faith, forgiveness, hope, love?
God gives life and He takes it away for His purpose. If the child or mother is meant to pass away, it is in God's hand. He allows pain and suffering so that we can know His attributes. We could NOT fully understand what good is without evil. We must experience the absence of good in a situation to appreciate good when it comes along. It's like the earthquake that killed 300k in Haiti, one of the poorest countries that the world turned a blind eye to. A third world country, with selfish rulers and false religions ... who cared? You might say how tragic, sad and horrible. Then ask why? What was God's purpose in that? The world, turned to this tragedy like a laser beam and floodd them with help, mercy, love ...and uess what, they brought Jesus along with them.
Pain, suffering and death have their purpose in Gods sovereign plan. Don't think that you are assisting God in some way by aborting a child or by trying to justify pro-choice. Life and death is above your pay grade.

 

[Archivist]

It's odd that you strongly believe in and occupy your time with saving cats ... even to write a book about It. Yet you are pro-choice. Cats or dogs live a short time, if a home can't be found and there are just an abundance of them, then euthanize them. What real value do they have sick, in a cage, without a home anyways? Is that heartless? You might say, they have rights. What about the unborn child, does it have rights to live, be loved, even for a short time? Could it be that God's whole purpose in sickness, suffering and death is to teach us mercy, faith, forgiveness, hope, love?
God gives life and He takes it away for His purpose. If the child or mother is meant to pass away, it is in God's hand. He allows pain and suffering so that we can know His attributes. We could NOT fully understand what good is without evil. We must experience the absence of good in a situation to appreciate good when it comes along. It's like the earthquake that killed 300k in Haiti, one of the poorest countries that the world turned a blind eye to. A third world country, with selfish rulers and false religions ... who cared? You might say how tragic, sad and horrible. Then ask why? What was God's purpose in that? The world, turned to this tragedy like a laser beam and floodd them with help, mercy, love ...and uess what, they brought Jesus along with them.
Pain, suffering and death have their purpose in Gods sovereign plan. Don't think that you are assisting God in some way by aborting a child or by trying to justify pro-choice. Life and death is above your pay grade.

So someone cannot be pro-choice and love animals? Really?

Being pro-choice does not mean that a person favors abortion. It simply means that they believe that the choice--which could include carrying a fetus to term--must rest with the pregnant woman.

 

[chilehed]

No, you are wrong. Murder is a legal term. Murder "occurs when one human being unlawfully kills another human being." In the case of abortion there is no unlawful killing.

That was one of the defense arguments at the Nuremberg trial. It doesn't hold water.

The fact that you take offense at the truth doesn't mean that I'm being impolite.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Perhaps if you could provide a better example it could be discussed, but as it stands I can't think of an example and you have, unfortunately, not provided one that makes sense yet.

What's illogical about a mother needing to choose between saving her own life or the baby's life? I gave a clear example of that.

Then wouldn't abortion be superfluous and totally unnecessary?

No. Finishing a pregnancy that you know will be unsuccessful can cause or worsen physical conditions like preeclampsia (which usually begins after 20 weeks).

If you replace "medical" with "moral" in your sentence that would be a correct statement.

Nope, medical is the right word here or I would notr use it.

Apparently no pro-baby-murders want to accept the fact that no one has the right to intentionally kill an innocent human being.

I am not pro-murder. I am pro-choice. There is a difference. Pro-murder is encouraging or recomminding abortions to expecting mothers. Pro-choice is preferring to let the mother and doctor have the option if at some point there is a legitimate reason to abort the pregnancy.

 

[Archivist]

That was one of the defense arguments at the Nuremberg trial. It doesn't hold water.

The fact that you take offense at the truth doesn't mean that I'm being impolite.

People can disagree on matters and still not resort to name calling. Apparently you cannot. Very sad.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Here is one you might find more acceptable: The mother has cancer and can't live without chemotherapy, which is passed to the fetus through the placenta and umbilical cord. UCs have two arteries and one vein. In this situation, the mother must choose between her own life or the baby's life. It is a no-brainer.

Either way the child is dead. There is probably an alternative, deliver the baby early and incubate. At least this is an attempt to save both lives. A preterm birth gives the child a chance to live. The other factor in all this is whether the insurance company will pay for this very expensive choice for life!

 

[redleghunter]

If you read what I wrote you would know that I was not commenting on moral worth. My comment was limited to legal status. I very clearly said that.

I believe the thread addresses the moral positions?

However, I gather you would be just as supporting for human life in the womb if their legal status changed to being legal or constitutional persons with full protection of the law?

 

[GodLovesCats]

Ronald, you spilled the water too early. I wanted to be the first to write about my dream to help cats.

FYI cat welfare advocacy does not conflict with supporting a woman's choice to abort her pregnancy.

 

[redleghunter]

Apparently no pro-baby-murders want to accept the fact that no one has the right to intentionally kill an innocent human being.

Yes there is much to be said about the shedding of innocent blood:

Deu 19:10

That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Deu 19:13

Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

Deu 21:8

Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.

Deu 21:9

So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

1Sa 19:5

For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?

1Ki 2:31

And the king said unto him, Do as he hath said, and fall upon him, and bury him; that thou mayest take away the innocent blood, which Joab shed, from me, and from the house of my father.

2Ki 21:16

Moreover Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another; beside his sin wherewith he made Judah to sin, in doing that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

2Ki 24:4

And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon.

Psa 94:21

They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.

Psa 106:38

And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Pro 6:17

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isa 59:7

Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Jer 7:6

If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

Jer 22:3

Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Jer 22:17

But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.

Jer 26:15

But know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth the LORD hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in your ears.

Joe 3:19

Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Jon 1:14

Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.

Mat 27:4

Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

 

[Davidnic]

Here is one you might find more acceptable: The mother has cancer and can't live without chemotherapy, which is passed to the fetus through the placenta and umbilical cord. UCs have two arteries and one vein. In this situation, the mother must choose between her own life or the baby's life. It is a no-brainer.

For this reason, a doctor told my mother to abort my sister and I. She punched him in the face. Had us. Lived until we were ten.

So in your mind, my sister and I being killed was a no brainer? My mom had a brain and she disagreed. She said killing her children was not an option even though the doctor insisted she would die before we were born if she did not kill us.

And there are many other treatments now than there were then. So the situation you outline as black and white, one choice or the other is the logical fallacy false dichotomy.

 

[Davidnic]

Chemo During Pregnancy Appears Safe for Mother and Child

 

[Davidnic]

Your proposition appears less black and white today as it was in my mothers

Hope for Two...The Pregnant with Cancer Network - Hope for Two

 

[chilehed]

People can disagree on matters and still not resort to name calling. Apparently you cannot. Very sad.

Calling something by its proper name does not constitute name-calling.

 

[Davidnic]

Chemotherapy against cancer during pregnancy: A systematic review on neonatal outcomes

It seems there is only great danger during the embryonic stage and it can be delayed at that point and used in the second trimester without affecting maternal survival rates or great risk to the child. In essence, treating both patients. So at this point the proposed premise falls apart.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I made it clear my situation is not black and white, but on a patient basis.