Were in the bible does it say the soul is immortal?
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trophy33
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May be. Maybe not. Revelation is not a clear book. But to say "there will exist no seas (in the meaning of waters) on the new earth, because Revelation says so" is not a very solid statement, regarding the fullness of symbolism there, IMHO.
Its like saying that there will be a real, literal beast with several heads ruling the earth, beause "Its how it is written"...
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mmksparbud
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things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation is symbolic where it is obvious it is, otherwise literal. Everybody believes what they want about it---the only way to understand Rev. is to know the OT. Rev. means what the word says--Revelation--and it is the revealing of Jesus Christ, just as it says at the very start. Jesus, and the apostles and all first Christians, all they had was the OT --- for years after the Death of Jesus, and before letters started being sent around. And it was the OT that was referred to with this:
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
And you can not understand Rev without understanding Daniel. They are both about things that must come to pass---the symbolic point to the literal. Look for words in Rev that are also in the OT, esp Daniel, and stsrt putting it together---the bible does explain itself.
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation is symbolic where it is obvious it is, otherwise literal. Everybody believes what they want about it---the only way to understand Rev. is to know the OT. Rev. means what the word says--Revelation--and it is the revealing of Jesus Christ, just as it says at the very start. Jesus, and the apostles and all first Christians, all they had was the OT --- for years after the Death of Jesus, and before letters started being sent around. And it was the OT that was referred to with this:
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
And you can not understand Rev without understanding Daniel. They are both about things that must come to pass---the symbolic point to the literal. Look for words in Rev that are also in the OT, esp Daniel, and stsrt putting it together---the bible does explain itself.
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Even in context, it clearly, blatantly disproves the doctrine of the inherently immortal soul. If it is subject to death, any death - first, second, whatever - it is not immortal. I just don't get how people try to talk around this obvious definitive fact. Immortal = not subject to death; cannot die. Period.
@vinsight4u, dance around Scripture all you want to try to convince us that death means "spiritual death", or that destruction means infinite conscious suffering, or my personal favorite argument that you have tried to supply in post #35: that the corpses in Isaiah 66:24 looked upon must be still-living, conscious people ... simply because it did not use the terms ashes, as if one must necessarily still be alive and conscious unless they were turned completely to ash or something.
Buuuut I'm afraid that's what fire tends to do to living things. Burn them up, not preserve them.
In fact! Here are two verses right here that specifically say "burn up", leaving no (honest) room for doubt in the fate of the wicked as utter destruction instead of a living eternity in torment by fire:
Malachi 4:1
Matthew 3:12
.... Didn't I say earlier that I'm out of this thread? Yeah, I need to actually stick with that. Besides, I am pretty sure you will remain unconvinced no matter what @mmksparbud or anyone else says.
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JPS Tenakh 1917 Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground & breathed into his nostrils the breath of life & man became a living soul.
NASB ...and man became a living being.
YLT ...and the man becometh a living creature.
NLT ...and the man became a living person.
...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of LIFE. Life is in the plural not singular; literally breath of lives. What kind of lives did God give man originally? He gave man physical life with physical breath & He gave man spiritual life by means of a spirit, to communicate with God's Spirit; the outer man & the inner man; the material or mortal physical life & the inner spiritual man of spirit & soul, which are immortal, not mortal--the soul cannot be killed.
...to the dividing of soul & spirit (contrasting the 2, a distinction--Heb 4:12,13)
...strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man (Eph 3:16)
outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed daily (2 Cor 4:16)
...the inner man & the heart are deep (mysterious, hidden--Ps 64:6).
Prov 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the INNERMOST PARTS OF HIS BEING.
Num 16:22 O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh...
Num 27:16 May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh...
Zech 12:1 Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens & lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him.
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing & the breath of all mankind.
Matt 28:10 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul
I Thess 5:23 May your whole spirit & soul & body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mark 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart AND with all your soul
and with all your mind and with all your strength...
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth & abideth for ever.
Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's Law.
I Pet 3:5 “Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair & the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—but upon the inner person of the heart, the IMMORTAL (IMPERISHABLE) MEEK & QUIET SPIRIT.
Strong's Greek: 862. ἄφθαρτος (aphthartos) — 8 Occurrences (Mk 16:20; Rom 1:23; I Cor 9:25; 15:52; I Tim 1:17; I Pet 1:4; I Pet 1:23; I Pet 3:4)--indestructible, imperishable, incorruptible; hence: immortal.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon: ἄφθαρτος, ἄφθαρτον (φθείρω), uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable: of things, 1 Cor 9:25; 1 Pet 1:4, 23; 3:4. immortal: of the risen dead, 1 Cor 15:52; of God, Rom 1:23; 1 Tim 1:17.
STRONGS NT 862b: ἀφθορίαἀφθορία, ἀφθοριας, ἡ (ἄφθορος uncorrupted, from φθείρω), uncorruptness: Titus 2:7. It denotes simply the inner man, person or being, in contradistinction to the outward man or mortal body of flesh. 1 Peter 3:3; cf. ὁ ἔσω ἀνθρ., Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; ὁ ἔσωθεν, sc. ἄνθρ., 2 Cor 4:16; cf., too, such expressions as: τὰ κρυπτὰ τῆς καρδίας, 1 Cor 14:25, and τὰ κρυπτὰ τῶν ἄνθρ., Rom 2:16. The apostle selected the expression κρυπτός as a contrast to the conspicuous adornment formerly spoken of.
The preposition 'ἐν' points out the sphere in which the inner hidden man should move. If “ὧν ὁ κόσμος ἔστω” be supplied after ἀλλά, then “ἐν is to be joined with it, so as to show in what & with what, this their inward hidden man should be their ornament.”
τοῦ πρᾳέος καὶ ἡσυχίου πνεύματος] a more exact definition of the ἄφθαρτον; it denotes not the πν. ἅγιον of God (Holy Spirit of God), but the spirit of man. The meek & quiet spirit (here emphasized with special reference to ὑποτασσόμενοι, 1 Peter 3:1) is that which is “imperishable,” in which the hidden life of woman should exist & move.[170]
A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the NT:
But the hidden man of the heart (all o krupto th kardia anqrwpo). Here anqrwpo is in contrast with kosmo (world system) just before. See Paul's use of anqrwpo for the outer & old, the inner & new man ( 2 Cor 4:16 ; Rom 7:22 ; Col 3:9 ; Eph 3:16 ; Eph 4:22,24).
See also the Jew en kruptwi ( Rom 2:29 ) & what Jesus said about God seeing "in secret" ( Matt 6:4,6). In the incorruptible 'apparel' of a meek & quiet spirit (en twi apqartwi tou hsuciou kai praew pneumato). NO WORD IN THE GREEK FOR 'APPAREL'.
Mark 8:34-38 “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself & take up his cross & follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will LOSE it, but whoever loses his life FOR MY SAKE & for the gospel will save it.
What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet FORFEIT {G2210} HIS SOUL? Or what can a man give IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL? 38If anyone is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in His Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Strong's Greek: 2210. ζημιόω (zémioó) — 6 Occurrences. From 2209 /zēmía, "loss") – to cause or experience loss (forfeiture), especially carrying a penalty (significant detriment). To injure, i.e. (reflexively or passively) to experience detriment -- be cast away, receive damage, lose, suffer loss.
In Mark 8:36 the verb is in the passive, showing the action is done to the individual, after death he has no control over his soul, what happens to it & where it goes.
Psalm 49:5-15 Why should I fear in times of trouble, when THE INIQUITY of those who CHEAT ME surrounds me, those who TRUST IN their wealth & boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can redeem another or give to God the ransom of his soul, for the ransom of their life is too costly (precious)-- & can never suffice, that he should live on forever & never see the pit.
10For he sees that even the wise die; the fool & the senseless alike must perish
& leave their wealth to others. Inwardly their homes are forever, their dwelling places to all generations; they called lands by their own names. But, despite their wealth, people do not last, they are like animals that perish.
13This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah. Like a flock of sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
death shall be their shepherd & the upright shall rule over them in the morning.
Their FORM (image) shall waste away IN SHEOL, far from their lofty abode. But God will ransom MY SOUL FROM THE POWER OF SHEOL, FOR HE WILL RECEIVE ME. Selah
I Sam 28:14 He said to her, "What is HIS FORM?" And she said, "An old man is coming up & he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel. {coming up from Sheol}
Matt 17:2 There in their presence HIS FORM UNDERWENT A CHANGE; His face shone like the sun & His raiment became as white as the light.
Job 13:28 So I waste away LIKE something rotten, LIKE a garment eaten by moths.
Job 17:13 If I wait, Sheol is my house; I have made my bed in the darkness.
Job 33:24-28 ...He is gracious to that person & says to God, ‘Spare them from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for them—let their flesh be renewed like a child’s; let them be restored as in the days of their youth’—then that person can pray to God & favor with Him, they will see God’s face & shout for joy; He will restore them to full well-being. And they will go to others & say, ‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right, but I did not get what I deserved. God has delivered me from going down to the pit & I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’
Job 19:25-27 “But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives & at the last He will stand upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!
I Peter 1:17-19 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished & spotless, the blood of Christ.
NASB ...and man became a living being.
YLT ...and the man becometh a living creature.
NLT ...and the man became a living person.
...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of LIFE. Life is in the plural not singular; literally breath of lives. What kind of lives did God give man originally? He gave man physical life with physical breath & He gave man spiritual life by means of a spirit, to communicate with God's Spirit; the outer man & the inner man; the material or mortal physical life & the inner spiritual man of spirit & soul, which are immortal, not mortal--the soul cannot be killed.
...to the dividing of soul & spirit (contrasting the 2, a distinction--Heb 4:12,13)
...strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man (Eph 3:16)
outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed daily (2 Cor 4:16)
...the inner man & the heart are deep (mysterious, hidden--Ps 64:6).
Prov 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the INNERMOST PARTS OF HIS BEING.
Num 16:22 O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh...
Num 27:16 May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh...
Zech 12:1 Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens & lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him.
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing & the breath of all mankind.
Matt 28:10 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul
I Thess 5:23 May your whole spirit & soul & body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mark 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart AND with all your soul
and with all your mind and with all your strength...
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth & abideth for ever.
Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's Law.
I Pet 3:5 “Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair & the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—but upon the inner person of the heart, the IMMORTAL (IMPERISHABLE) MEEK & QUIET SPIRIT.
Strong's Greek: 862. ἄφθαρτος (aphthartos) — 8 Occurrences (Mk 16:20; Rom 1:23; I Cor 9:25; 15:52; I Tim 1:17; I Pet 1:4; I Pet 1:23; I Pet 3:4)--indestructible, imperishable, incorruptible; hence: immortal.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon: ἄφθαρτος, ἄφθαρτον (φθείρω), uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable: of things, 1 Cor 9:25; 1 Pet 1:4, 23; 3:4. immortal: of the risen dead, 1 Cor 15:52; of God, Rom 1:23; 1 Tim 1:17.
STRONGS NT 862b: ἀφθορίαἀφθορία, ἀφθοριας, ἡ (ἄφθορος uncorrupted, from φθείρω), uncorruptness: Titus 2:7. It denotes simply the inner man, person or being, in contradistinction to the outward man or mortal body of flesh. 1 Peter 3:3; cf. ὁ ἔσω ἀνθρ., Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; ὁ ἔσωθεν, sc. ἄνθρ., 2 Cor 4:16; cf., too, such expressions as: τὰ κρυπτὰ τῆς καρδίας, 1 Cor 14:25, and τὰ κρυπτὰ τῶν ἄνθρ., Rom 2:16. The apostle selected the expression κρυπτός as a contrast to the conspicuous adornment formerly spoken of.
The preposition 'ἐν' points out the sphere in which the inner hidden man should move. If “ὧν ὁ κόσμος ἔστω” be supplied after ἀλλά, then “ἐν is to be joined with it, so as to show in what & with what, this their inward hidden man should be their ornament.”
τοῦ πρᾳέος καὶ ἡσυχίου πνεύματος] a more exact definition of the ἄφθαρτον; it denotes not the πν. ἅγιον of God (Holy Spirit of God), but the spirit of man. The meek & quiet spirit (here emphasized with special reference to ὑποτασσόμενοι, 1 Peter 3:1) is that which is “imperishable,” in which the hidden life of woman should exist & move.[170]
A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the NT:
But the hidden man of the heart (all o krupto th kardia anqrwpo). Here anqrwpo is in contrast with kosmo (world system) just before. See Paul's use of anqrwpo for the outer & old, the inner & new man ( 2 Cor 4:16 ; Rom 7:22 ; Col 3:9 ; Eph 3:16 ; Eph 4:22,24).
See also the Jew en kruptwi ( Rom 2:29 ) & what Jesus said about God seeing "in secret" ( Matt 6:4,6). In the incorruptible 'apparel' of a meek & quiet spirit (en twi apqartwi tou hsuciou kai praew pneumato). NO WORD IN THE GREEK FOR 'APPAREL'.
Mark 8:34-38 “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself & take up his cross & follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will LOSE it, but whoever loses his life FOR MY SAKE & for the gospel will save it.
What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet FORFEIT {G2210} HIS SOUL? Or what can a man give IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL? 38If anyone is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in His Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Strong's Greek: 2210. ζημιόω (zémioó) — 6 Occurrences. From 2209 /zēmía, "loss") – to cause or experience loss (forfeiture), especially carrying a penalty (significant detriment). To injure, i.e. (reflexively or passively) to experience detriment -- be cast away, receive damage, lose, suffer loss.
In Mark 8:36 the verb is in the passive, showing the action is done to the individual, after death he has no control over his soul, what happens to it & where it goes.
Psalm 49:5-15 Why should I fear in times of trouble, when THE INIQUITY of those who CHEAT ME surrounds me, those who TRUST IN their wealth & boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can redeem another or give to God the ransom of his soul, for the ransom of their life is too costly (precious)-- & can never suffice, that he should live on forever & never see the pit.
10For he sees that even the wise die; the fool & the senseless alike must perish
& leave their wealth to others. Inwardly their homes are forever, their dwelling places to all generations; they called lands by their own names. But, despite their wealth, people do not last, they are like animals that perish.
13This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah. Like a flock of sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
death shall be their shepherd & the upright shall rule over them in the morning.
Their FORM (image) shall waste away IN SHEOL, far from their lofty abode. But God will ransom MY SOUL FROM THE POWER OF SHEOL, FOR HE WILL RECEIVE ME. Selah
I Sam 28:14 He said to her, "What is HIS FORM?" And she said, "An old man is coming up & he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel. {coming up from Sheol}
Matt 17:2 There in their presence HIS FORM UNDERWENT A CHANGE; His face shone like the sun & His raiment became as white as the light.
Job 13:28 So I waste away LIKE something rotten, LIKE a garment eaten by moths.
Job 17:13 If I wait, Sheol is my house; I have made my bed in the darkness.
Job 33:24-28 ...He is gracious to that person & says to God, ‘Spare them from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for them—let their flesh be renewed like a child’s; let them be restored as in the days of their youth’—then that person can pray to God & favor with Him, they will see God’s face & shout for joy; He will restore them to full well-being. And they will go to others & say, ‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right, but I did not get what I deserved. God has delivered me from going down to the pit & I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’
Job 19:25-27 “But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives & at the last He will stand upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger. How my heart yearns within me!
I Peter 1:17-19 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished & spotless, the blood of Christ.
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mmksparbud
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7 and~he~will~MOLD(V) (וַיִּיצֶר / wai'yi'tser) YHWH (יְהוָה / YHWH) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) AT (אֶת / et) the~HUMAN (הָאָדָם / ha'a'dam) DIRT (עָפָר / a'phar) FROM (מִן / min) the~GROUND (הָאֲדָמָה / ha'a'da'mah) and~he~will~EXHALE(V) (וַיִּפַּח / wai'yi'pahh) in~NOSE~s2~him (בְּאַפָּיו / bê'a'paw) BREATH (נִשְׁמַת / nish'mat) LIVING~s (חַיִּים / hhai'yim) and~he~will~EXIST(V) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) the~HUMAN (הָאָדָם / ha'a'dam) to~SOUL (לְנֶפֶשׁ / lê'ne'phesh) LIVING (חַיָּה / hhai'yah)
RMT: and YHWH the Elohiym molded the human of dirt from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a living soul,
BREATH: (fem.: נשמה / ne'shey'mah) Air inhaled or exhaled. The breath of man or god. The essence of life. Strong's: #5397
LIVING: (masc.: חי / hhai) (fem.: חיה / hhai'ah) The quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body; life. Literally the stomach. Used idiomatically of living creatures, especially in conjunction with land, ground or field. Alternate Translations: life (when in the plural form); creature (as a living one). Strong's: #2416
Not plural---A BREATH OF LIVE---singular.
Pro_8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
There is no immortality of the soul---Life belongs to God. Immortality is a gift from gift for the living---nowhere does it say God gives immortality to the wicked.
Already posted the verses that Adam and Eve required the tree of life---they were cast out of the garden to prevent them eating of it and living forever. And we get it back after the resurrection. Nowhere does it say the tree of life is going to be given to the wicked---what are we going to do---throw our remnants at them so they can be kept alive to be tortured?! What a horrible view of God---if you do not know God, He will not know you! God alone is immortal--the Godhead.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
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