LDS LDS: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT!"

mmksparbud

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At the time of his ministry he was not equal to God the Father. He had not complete his mission, he had not learned complete obedience yet, and he was not perfect yet.

If you don't believe me, which you do not, then believe Jesus when he said this:
John 14:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Is this a biblical typo? OR am I right?

You just don't get it! Jesus was always equal to God before the incarnation. Though He kept His divinity, He was now 100% human. He was still One with God, but in a different way. After His resurrection He became a glorified man, but still retains His humanity and is also divine. We can't attain that level. Jesus will always be above us and JESUS ALWAYS POINTED TO GOD THE FATHER. OT is all about Jesus, NT is all about the Father. Jesus lived the life we are to, and He taught us to pray to God the Father--in His name and to daily pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus will always consider Himself to be lesser than God the Father, for He is His son, but He is and always was and will be--equal to God. JS never could understand any of it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes there are many scriptures I could have quoted such as Philippians 2:5-6, John 10:33-35, or Philippians 3:13-15 What does Ephesians 4:13 mean to you?

Three of those four have already been addressed. The passage in John has Jesus quoting Psalm 82,

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
'How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.'

They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

I said, 'You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.'

Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!
"

The "gods" here are human judges, mortal men. Not "gods".

The Psalmist is using wordplay. The Hebrew word el and its plural elohim mean "mighty" ("mighty ones"). The human judges though "mighty", though "gods", are really just men, they die like men die. The leaders of men, "mighty", "gods" that they might seem to be are nothing at all.

Jesus is adding another layer on top of this by His usage. He has identified Himself as the Son of God, which resulted in a hostile response and accusations of blasphemy, to which Jesus responds that the Psalmist says "you are gods" to mere men, so why are these people getting upset with Him when He merely calls Himself the Son of God?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Peter1000

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The God whom Mormons are talking about is the God of this world in the sense that the belief is that those married Mormons who are resurrected to glory remained married and become a celestial couple who go out into the universe and become the God of another planet. So, on the new planet, there is a new God, a new Lucifer and Jesus, brothers who are born of the new "God- couple", meaning that the new Jesus has a God father and a God mother. Then the whole Fall and the plan of salvation starts all over again, a new race of Nephites, a Mormon church spawning "celestial couples" who die and are resurrected and go out to other planets to start the whole process again.

So, if we look back to the past, there are thousands if not millions of planets that this whole process is going on all the time, and our planet is just one of them, so, in the future, the process will continue, adding to the trillions of "Gods" that are already existing throughout the universe.

So, the Mormon view of God is that He has a father and mother of His own and that Lucifer and Jesus are offspring of the "God-couple". And the God-couple have their father and mother on another planet somewhere, and that father and mother have a father and mother on still another planet. And so on, and on, and on, ad infinitum.

I am not sure that the normal rank-and-file Mormon believer realises that.
Why do you think the universe continues to expand?

Most rank and file members of the Church of Jesus Christ know what you have just said, especially temple card holding members.
 
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Peter1000

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Again, nothing about humans being or becoming God's equal. But rather the grace of adoption. Compare with Romans 8:14-17 and Galatians 4:4-7. Having received the Holy Spirit we have received adoption as children by God's grace, united to Christ we now--by grace--share in Christ's Sonship. Being found in Christ we have been brought into the profound mystery of God's life and love, of the love between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is all, of course, by grace not by nature. It is the gift of God's own Self, in Christ through the Spirit.

unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I honestly don't even know how you might be trying to twist this one to get what you want out of it.

You would have a much better time if you tried to quote 1 John 3:2 or 2 Peter 1:4; I mean these don't say we shall become equals of God either, but I'm honestly surprised you didn't at least try to use them.

-CryptoLutheran
If you are one with God and Jesus, as God and Jesus are one, you are just like They are, and since They are God, that makes you a god too.

If you are unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, you are just like Christ is, and if you think Christ is a God, then that is what we are too.

So I hope you see how being 1 with God and Jesus does not need to be twisted in order to support our position. If you have the same fulness of Christ you have to twist things to support other positions.

1 John 3:2 and 2 Peter 1:4 are excellent scriptures to support us being like God. Thank you.
 
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St. Helens

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MOD HAT ON
Please post replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.
This isn't a forum for Christians to debate each other. This thread is a debate between Mormons and Christians.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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Christian Apologist

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If you are one with God and Jesus, as God and Jesus are one, you are just like They are, and since They are God, that makes you a god too.

If you are unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, you are just like Christ is, and if you think Christ is a God, then that is what we are too.

So I hope you see how being 1 with God and Jesus does not need to be twisted in order to support our position. If you have the same fulness of Christ you have to twist things to support other positions.

1 John 3:2 and 2 Peter 1:4 are excellent scriptures to support us being like God. Thank you.


Seperant.jpg
 
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ViaCrucis

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If you are one with God and Jesus, as God and Jesus are one, you are just like They are, and since They are God, that makes you a god too.

If you are unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, you are just like Christ is, and if you think Christ is a God, then that is what we are too.

So I hope you see how being 1 with God and Jesus does not need to be twisted in order to support our position. If you have the same fulness of Christ you have to twist things to support other positions.

1 John 3:2 and 2 Peter 1:4 are excellent scriptures to support us being like God. Thank you.

There is a difference between homoousia and koinonia.

The unity of the Father and the Son is in their homoousia, the unity of the Divine Being and Essence; that the Son is of the same Being as the Father from all eternity.

The unity of the Church, the Church in Christ through the Spirit, is koinonia, the intimate communion and fellowship we have together with God, in Christ, through the Spirit.

The bonds between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is what the Trinity has by Being, Essence, and Nature. The fraternal bonds of God's people with and in the Triune and Divine life is by adoption and grace.

Christ calls His Father "Father" because He is the eternal, uncreated, and only-begotten of the Father, begotten of the Father's own uncreated, eternal, and incomprehensible Essence. So the Son is God, because He is of the Father's own Being. As Son He calls this One "Father".

We call Christ's Father "Father" because we have received grace and adoption as children, having received the Holy Spirit by which we can say, "Abba! Father!". We call the Creator and Originator of all "Father" because we are in Christ.

What Christ has from all eternity, and is by His own eternal relationship to the Father we have become partakers of by grace. Christ is homoousia with the Father, we are joined to Christ in koinonia by grace and adoption, and in Christ have received the Holy Spirit and sonship by which to call Christ's Father our Father too.

To be joined to Christ by grace is a treasure, gift, and mystery that is infinitely better than to ever achieve some lowly status as "a god". It was the liar and murderer from the beginning who said to Eve, "You will be as gods". What God desires for us is something far more sublime than such trite notions of divinity. He wants us to share in Himself, as He has willed to share Himself with the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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There is a difference between homoousia and koinonia.

The unity of the Father and the Son is in their homoousia, the unity of the Divine Being and Essence; that the Son is of the same Being as the Father from all eternity.

The unity of the Church, the Church in Christ through the Spirit, is koinonia, the intimate communion and fellowship we have together with God, in Christ, through the Spirit.

The bonds between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is what the Trinity has by Being, Essence, and Nature. The fraternal bonds of God's people with and in the Triune and Divine life is by adoption and grace.

Christ calls His Father "Father" because He is the eternal, uncreated, and only-begotten of the Father, begotten of the Father's own uncreated, eternal, and incomprehensible Essence. So the Son is God, because He is of the Father's own Being. As Son He calls this One "Father".

We call Christ's Father "Father" because we have received grace and adoption as children, having received the Holy Spirit by which we can say, "Abba! Father!".

What Christ has from all eternity, and is by His own eternal relationship to the Father we have become partakers of by grace. Christ is homoousia with the Father, we are joined to Christ in koinonia by grace and adoption, and in Christ have received the Holy Spirit and sonship by which to call Christ's Father our Father too.

To be joined to Christ by grace is a treasure, gift, and mystery that is infinitely better than to ever achieve some lowly status as "a god". It was the liar and murderer from the beginning who said to Eve, "You will be as gods". What God desires for us is something far more sublime than such trite notions of divinity. He wants us to share in Himself, as He has willed to share Himself with the world.

-CryptoLutheran

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

Homoiousios = similar substance (Arius' position)

Homo = same

Homoi = similar

Ousios = substance S

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

Lutheran + Graph.jpg
 
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When Mormons say, "We don't believe that," sometimes it actually means "We no longer believe that." Because of the wording used, once in a while they'll be using a smoke screen, and the inquirer won't even know it's being used.
 
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Rescued One

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The current D&C 10:1, which specifies the Urim and Thummim, was not mentioned in the original Book of Commandments. The term was not utilized within the Church until January 1833, when W. W. Phelps hypothesized in The Evening & Morning Star that the Nephite interpreters or spectacles may have been the Urim & Thummim mentioned in the Bible. From that point forward, the Church intermingled the spectacles, interpreters, and seer stones stones as Urim & Thummim.
https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-doctrine/doctrinal-changes/
 
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When Mormons say, "We don't believe that," sometimes it actually means "We no longer believe that." Because of the wording used, once in a while they'll be using a smoke screen, and the inquirer won't even know it's being used.

The Mormons are taught the art of misinformation

The Iceberg Principle

Public Relation message of Mormonism is designed to attract the general public by offering "everlasting happiness and fulfillment." Then the missionaries are sent to ask, "do you want to know more about the gospel of Jesus Christ?" But just as the iceberg is about 10% visible to the eye, so the Mormon missionary lessons represent only a small, visible part of Mormon doctrine.

The missionary stratagem of withholding information is exposed by quoting page 9 of the "stake mission handbook" published by the Mormons:

"The standard missionary discussions, when they are taught by the spirit, lead investigators carefully and systematically to a knowledge of these truths. Other portions of the gospel should generally be left to instruction and study after baptism. The Lord has instructed ,'And of tenets thou shall not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea , even the Holy Ghost' ( Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 )

It is evident that Mormon authorities are commanding an inadequate representation of Mormonism by intentional concealment of their beliefs. this designed omission acts as a virtual fraud on the individual, manipulating then into the waters of baptism and membership into Mormonism. Mormon authorities feel justified in this deception because they believe they are "legal administrators" of the "only true church on the face of the earth" and, therefore, know what is best for all mankind.

After baptism, new members are scheduled into investigators' Sunday School class where the lessions are carefully presented. In this "Intial Indoctrination" phase they are taken through the "gospel Principle Manual." Mormon doctrine is explained in Christian-sounding words and phrases; differences in perspective are introduced gradually. When local LDS authorities decide they are ready,new members are moved into regular where they study "Doctrines in the Curriculum" from standard lesson manuals published at Mormon headquarters. Teachers are admonished not to deviate from lesson manuals or supplement with outside materials.

Within the first year most members will begin preparations to go to the temple. Now they are moved into a "temple preparation class" where emphasis is the doctrine of eternal progression and living the gospel law. Brief statements made about temple endowments include the same scanty information that is available to the public.. After a worthiness interview, Mormons go the temple to be sealed for time and all eternity.

Joseph Smith Jr. claimed that God reveals the "Deep and Hidden Mysteries of the Kingdom" in the temple ceremonies. In these rituals, patrons are bombarded with symbolism, rites, gestures, and a variety of stimuli which are entirely out of context with any religious experience they have heretofore known. They are assured that everything is uplifting and that their understanding of temple ritual will increase through participation and indirect proportion to their level of personal righteousness. Only the very inquisitive ever read the wide variety of historical data and revealing doctrinal statements written by earlier Mormon leaders. These "obscure Doctrines" are often dismissed with the statement, "The voice of the living prophet is more important to us than the voice of a dead prophet." Understanding varies from person to person depending on their level of personal study and exposure. This is true, even among those in leadership positions.

"end justifies the means" mentioned earlier psychology- an idea that all men must be led ' into the kingdom' gently, as they are ready. Mormons are taught to justify this practice with two scriptures: "line upon line, precept upon precept" (Isa. 28:10,18) and the concept of "milk to meat" ( 1 Peter 2:2; Heb 5:12) This interpretation is not scriptural. Jesus said there is nothing hidden (Matt. 10:26): but we gain understanding line upon line, as we are enabled by the Spirit to comprehend what has revealed.

The Lord said, "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth... (Isa 45:19) Deep and hidden things need to be brought to the light of God's word. ( 1 Cor 4:5; Eph 5:8)

page 8 Understanding Mormonism Sandra and Conrad Sundholm
 
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Sadly so true, Christian Apologist. And they defend it saying this is an overall picture. No, it isn't.

I'm sorry I edit so much; I hate all my typos!
 
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Staying on the subject, there are a lot of things that people say we believe and that is what we teach when in reality they are wrong. It is not what we believe and not what we are taught. I have corrected many erroneous statements made on this forum.
 
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Staying on the subject, there are a lot of things that people say we believe and that is what we teach when in reality they are wrong. It is not what we believe and not what we are taught. I have corrected many erroneous statements made on this forum.

All these Mormon teachings can be documented

From the book called "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Mormonism" John Ankerberg & John Weldon

Mormonism.jpg
 
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He is the way

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All these Mormon teachings can be documented

From the book called "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Mormonism" John Ankerberg & John Weldon
Your chart is unreliable, for one thing we believe that Jesus was born to a virgin and another thing we do not believe that salvation is by works, it is by grace after all that we can do:

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 17:14)

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

There may be more problems with your post. Please don't tell us what we believe.
 
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Your chart is unreliable, for one thing we believe that Jesus was born to a virgin and another thing we do not believe that salvation is by works, it is by grace after all that we can do:

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 17:14)

14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

There may be more problems with your post. Please don't tell us what we believe.

I've stated many times the Book of Mormon rarely ever agrees with Mormonism

The Book of Mormon v. Mormon Doctrine

References: Mormon vs Biblical Teachings about Jesus
 
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