Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

[mkgal1]

If God allowed national Israel to be completely wiped out (Jerusalem) and it’s return “isn’t His will”, why does it exist, in your mind.

Are you suggesting that - if something exists - that's because it's God's will? Because I cannot buy into that (think of some of the evil in this world right now). Humans can definitely exploit religion for their own purpose.

 

[Grip Docility]

Are you suggesting that - if something exists - that's because it's God's will? Because I cannot buy into that (think of some of the evil in this world right now). Humans can definitely exploit religion for their own purpose.

No, I’m suggesting that God allowed the destruction of Jerusalem and now, it’s clear it’s back. God doesn’t make mistakes. If He removed it and it had stayed gone, your full perspective would be acceptable, but it’s back.

I’m saying God has always had a hand in National Israel.

Is this not obvious?

 

[mkgal1]

I’m asking, with biblical certainty about the Romans 11:11-36, Acts 1, Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 of the matter as they correlate to Revelation literally.

I’m noting that Paul distinguishes between National Israel and Heavenly Israel in Galatians, which is a major step for me theologically.

Do you have an answer?

It's helped me to see this by reading the Bible more with a central plot - and this article lays out what that plot is (in my opinion).

The destructions of Jerusalem

We Gentiles have trouble seeing the flow of history in the Bible, as the story of Israel seems so distant and foreign to us. But it was far from distant or foreign to Paul — and we miss much of what’s going on if we ignore this.

In Romans 9 – 11, the historical event that looms over quotation after quotation is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. The 10 northern tribes of Israel (often called simply “Israel”) had been taken into captivity by the Assyrians. The remaining two tribes (Judea and the much smaller tribe of Benjamin, generally referred to together as “Judea”) survived.

However, despite repeated warnings from the prophets, Judea became idolatrous. Even when kings sought to reform Judea, most of the people remained Baal worshippers. Eventually, even the kings were sacrificing their own children to Baal — making them “pass through the fire,” that is, burning them alive.

God brought to fruition the curses promised in Deuteronomy by allowing the Babylonians to lay siege to and destroy Jerusalem and the temple. However, the prophets promised that God would bless those who returned as promised in Deuteronomy 30.

Return from Exile

Under the Persians, some of the Jews returned to Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, and they rebuilt the temple (the “Second Temple”). However, the Jews by and large did not consider the exile to be over. God had promised to set things right when the exile was over, and it hadn’t happened. After all, they were under Roman rule, an Edomite sat on the throne (kings in the Herodian dynasty had been named King of the Jews by Caesar), and the wrong lineage served as high priest. When Jesus came, many Jews were still looking for the fulfillment of the prophecies about the return from exile.

The second destruction

Forty years after Pentecost, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, re-enacting the curses of Deuteronomy. Jesus had cried over Jerusalem and prophesied its destruction. Thanks to Jesus’ words, Christians living in Jerusalem fled, as Jesus had told them to, before the Romans laid siege to the city and killed its inhabitants in a brutal assault.

Now, huge portions of the Old Testament are dedicated to the Fall of Jerusalem. It was understood as God’s judgment against Israel and fulfillment of his curses announced in Deuteronomy. However, we read the New Testament as though the apostles were uninterested in the second destruction prophesied by Jesus. But they surely were deeply concerned about this.

Therefore, when Paul speaks of God’s dealings with the Jews, we have to pause to consider: is Paul speaking of damnation and salvation at the end of time? Or about a more immediate destruction coming in just a few years when the Romans would destroy Jerusalem and kill tens of thousands of Jews — in an event just as clearly marking God’s judgment against the Jews as Nebuchnezzar’s conquest of Jerusalem?

 

[mkgal1]

No, I’m suggesting that God allowed the destruction of Jerusalem and now, it’s clear it’s back. God doesn’t make mistakes. If He removed it and it had stayed gone, your full perspective would be acceptable, but it’s back.

I’m saying God has always had a hand in National Israel.

Is this not obvious?

"It's back"? The Temple.....animal sacrifices......Levitical priests....etc? I don't believe so.

Even with humans building altars and calling that "God's will"......I don't see that as true. God also doesn't interfere in the will of humanity (but He does fulfill His promises in spite of that - just as He did through King David).

 

[Grip Docility]

It's helped me to see this by reading the Bible more with a central plot - and this article lays out what that plot is (in my opinion).

I’m responding to scripture with a willingness to grow and learn...

But this continues to ignore Acts 1 which specifically cites Christ’s Corporeal Return by honest reading.

I can’t throw aside one idea with it all being painfully honest.

 

[Grip Docility]

"It's back"? The Temple.....animal sacrifices......Levitical priests....etc? I don't believe so.

Even with humans building altars and calling that "God's will"......I don't see that as true. God also doesn't interfere in the will of humanity (but He does fulfill His promises in spite of that - just as He did through King David).

Christ is the temple. Upon His return per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14, also Joel 3... The Temple, as in Jesus, will be there.

I get a ton of sidestepping over Acts 1 when it can’t be sidestepped!

 

[mkgal1]

Christ is the temple. Upon His return per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14, also Joel 3... The Temple, as in Jesus, will be there.

I get a ton of sidestepping over Acts 1 when it can’t be sidestepped!

Are we not "In Christ" now? Do you believe Jesus broke His promise to the disciples that He said this to ("that they will be His witnesses")? Was that meant for people living thousands of years later (or more!) and not really them?:

The Ascension
(Mark 16:19-20; Luke 24:50-53)

6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

​

 

[Grip Docility]

Are we not "In Christ" now? Do you believe Jesus broke His promise to the disciples that He said this to ("that they will be His witnesses")? Was that meant for people living thousands of years later (or more!) and not really them?:

The Ascension
(Mark 16:19-20; Luke 24:50-53)

6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

​

We are foreigners here and very easily, bound to Heavenly Jerusalem.

My specific question is Acts 1 and it’s clear verbiage.

Pentecost was not the Corporeal Presence. Zechariah 14 has not been fulfilled in any way, shape or form, nor Joel 3.

These are my specific questions.

 

[parousia70]

Heaven and earth hasn’t passed away yet

The heaven and earth God planted HERE most certainly has passed away:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

It's elements melted with fervent heat, exactly as prophesied when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground those wicked men to powder. (Matthew 21:40-45)

 

[Grip Docility]

The heaven and earth God planted HERE most certainly has passed away:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

It's elements melted with fervent heat, exactly as prophesied when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground those wicked men to powder. (Matthew 21:40-45)

Okay, for starters, the New Heaven and New earth isn’t here yet.

As in, Heavenly Jerusalem hasn’t come down yet.

Revelation 20 and 21 are not complete yet.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The heaven and earth God planted HERE most certainly has passed away:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

It's elements melted with fervent heat, exactly as prophesied when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground those wicked men to powder. (Matthew 21:40-45)

Very poor bible exegesis by applying the passing of heaven and earth of Revelation only to the Jews and Jerusalem of 70AD. Isaiah 51:16 has nothing to do with the passing of heaven and earth at all. Radical Preterism at work!

 

[Grip Docility]

Very poor bible exegesis by applying the passing of heaven and earth of Revelation only to the Jews and Jerusalem of 70AD. Isaiah 51:16 has nothing to do with the passing of heaven and earth at all. Radical Preterism at work!

You’ve got me blocked, but finally, a point we agree on! Amen!

 

[Grip Docility]

Are we not "In Christ" now? Do you believe Jesus broke His promise to the disciples that He said this to ("that they will be His witnesses")? Was that meant for people living thousands of years later (or more!) and not really them?:

The Ascension
(Mark 16:19-20; Luke 24:50-53)

6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

​

You’re full Preterist! I was just beginning to really appreciate your input even though I disagreed with you.

So Revelation 20 and Revelation 21 are fulfilled?

 

[parousia70]

If God allowed national Israel to be completely wiped out (Jerusalem) and it’s return “isn’t His will”, why does it exist, in your mind.

Why does Norway exist?
why does Australia exist?

What evidence do you have that leads you to believe the Modern day, multi-ethnic, Secular Democratic nation-state of Israel qualifies Biblically as "the return" of the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy?

Please be as detailed and specific as possible..

 

[Grip Docility]

Why does Norway exist?
why does Australia exist?

What evidence do you have that leads you to believe the Modern day, multi-ethnic, Secular Democratic nation-state of Israel qualifies Biblically as "the return" of the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy?

Please be as detailed and specific as possible..

Norway isn’t the Earthly Nation establishes by God then prophetically allowed to wiped out by God.

Apples and Oranges.

Norway isn’t a nation founded on and by God.

Even to locate into the very land, while Bannering the literal name is a miracle!

OT, discussion and prophecy towards National Israel.

NT, discussion and prophecy towards National Israel, The BOC, Gentile Unbelievers and Jewish Unbelievers.

You can’t ignore National Israel! Well, you can, but it’s not the best idea.

 

[parousia70]

Norway isn’t the Earthly Nation establishes by God then prophetically allowed to wiped out by God.

Apples and Oranges.

Norway isn’t a nation founded on and by God.

Even to locate into the very land, while Bannering the literal name is a miracle!

OT, discussion and prophecy towards National Israel.

NT, discussion and prophecy towards National Israel, The BOC, Gentile Unbelievers and Jewish Unbelievers.

You can’t ignore National Israel! Well, you can, but it’s not the best idea.

Again, what EVIDENCE do you have that TODAY's Multi-ethnic, SECULAR Democratic nation-state Israel QUALIFIES BIBLICALLY as the "return" of the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy?

You seem to have omitted any in that reply.

"well, it must be a miracle of God since those multi-ethnic, Democratic secularists call themselves Israel and forcibly took over similar geography" is pretty weak "biblical proof" of the “return of the Hebrew theocracy”.

Got anything more concrete?

 

[mkgal1]

You’re full Preterist! I was just beginning to really appreciate your input even though I disagreed with you.

No, I'm not full preterist. I believe His return is still in the future and not fulfilled.

 

[Grip Docility]

No, I'm not full preterist. I believe His return is still in the future and not fulfilled.

Perhaps that is where I suggest things need to be studied out further.

I agree that His return is yet to come. In this light, Heaven and earth clearly haven't past away yet, because this literally happens after His return in Revelation 20 - Revelation 21.

This is where context and order demand further study of scripture.

We, The BOC, Soon to be Residents and Citizens of “Jerusalem Above” upon the first death, or Christ’s Return, are not under the “curse” of the Old Covenant, but there are, will be and have been many that remain under its curse.

This is affirmed in scripture, is it not?

 

[Grip Docility]

Again, what EVIDENCE do you have that TODAY's Multi-ethnic, SECULAR Democratic nation-state Israel QUALIFIES BIBLICALLY as the "return" of the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy?

You seem to have omitted any in that reply.

"well, it must be a miracle that they call themselves Israel and took over similar geography"

yeah... that's pretty weak "proof".

Got anything more concrete?

If God didn’t want it to be there, it wouldn’t be and it indeed factors into prophecy and allows passages in scripture that were previously exegeted to eradicate the existence of National Israel, to be now more naturally understood, as it exists.

It exists! You can’t deny it! You can sweep it under the rug, but it pertains to many relevant passages of scripture that weren’t understood before, because many thought it was wiped out!

I say it’s very existence is the very aha of this matter and argue as you may, you can’t wipe it off the map.

Do you desire it to be wiped off the map?

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, I'm not full preterist. I believe His return is still in the future and not fulfilled.

Show me the verses that you believe is Christ's return in the future other than all other verses that you already applied only to 70AD.