Renowned philosopher signs petition calling on bishops to investigate Pope for heresy

[FireDragon76]

Insults to other posters aside, you are right...meaning classical liberal theology from the 19th century called into question the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Bodily Resurrection of Christ and in some cases the Deity of Christ. Among other things as well. The current Pope has not reached this form of outright heresy thus far.

Most current Popes have been influenced a great deal by early 20th century Catholic theology which was a resourcement of the Patristics, coupled with phenomenology.

From a phenomenological perspective, most of Catholic moral theology is a trainwreck and this is why Benedict recently spoke of the crisis in moral theology in his essay. Catholic moral theology is all over the place, aside from the hollow dogmatism that traditionalists hold onto.

Francis is just trying to make some sense of what is basically the broken pieces.

 

[redleghunter]

What is the heresy they are accusing him of? I read the link and it does not say.

Post #2 of the thread has a link to the letter.

 

[mark kennedy]

Actually what you presented in your previous post is more insidious with regards to liberal theology. As in the constant chipping away of orthodox beliefs. Which is the spirit of anti-Christ. I found your post insightful and informative.

I see, you must mean this:

It's not classical liberal theology. That statement betrays an ignorance of historical theology in the first place.

Liberal theology does deny historical theology in many ways. I'm glad you liked the post, appreciate the kind words of support. I'm just trying to figure out what Pope Francis is being accused of here, he is not my Pope so I don't have a lot of skin in the fight. But one thing I have noticed about him is that he is pretty liberal for a Pope, that's not meant to be scathing just true.

 

[mark kennedy]

I believe that this is good, I believe Pope Francis should be investigated because we’re seeing wild claims flying from a man who should be leading and serving Christ’s Church on earth, not liberalism.

I'm not trying to press here, just trying to understand. This is an in house debate for Catholics I get that. I'm really just curious, do you think that this criticism is based on his views being too liberal, however you understand that term.

 

[mark kennedy]

What is the heresy they are accusing him of? I read the link and it does not say.

There were seven points in the original letter:

1. A justified person has not the strength with God’s grace to carry out the objective demands of the divine law.
2. A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily chose to break it in a serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as the result of the action.
3. A person is able, while he obeys a divine prohibition, to sin against God by that very act of obedience.
4. Conscience can truly and rightly judge that sexual acts between persons who have contracted a civil marriage with each other, although one or both of them is sacramentally married to another person, can sometimes be morally right, or requested or even commanded by God.
5. It is false that the only sexual acts that are good of their kind and morally licit are acts between husband and wife.
6. Moral principles and moral truths contained in divine revelation and in the natural law do not include negative prohibitions that absolutely forbid particular kinds of actions, inasmuch as these are always gravely unlawful on account of their object.
7. God not only permits, but positively wills, the pluralism and diversity of religions, both Christian and non-Christian.

(Open Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church. Easter Week, 2019)

That's abbreviated and certainly doesn't include the reaction, but the basic details.

 

[PaulCyp1]

As though the personal opinion of one layman is going to cause the bishops of the Catholic Church to take action against the representative of Jesus Christ on Earth. Jesus Christ promised the first Pope "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". No Pope in the 2,000 year history of the Church has ever committed heresy. Some have been poor leaders, a few have led immoral personal lives, but none has ever committed heresy. If one of them were to do so, Jesus Christ would become a liar, or at least a fake.

 

[Barney2.0]

I'm not trying to press here, just trying to understand. This is an in house debate for Catholics I get that. I'm really just curious, do you think that this criticism is based on his views being too liberal, however you understand that term.

Probably so, I think it’s about time this happened aswell.

 

[redleghunter]

No Pope in the 2,000 year history of the Church has ever committed heresy.

I gather the question would be "who has the power to do so?"

Was not Pope Honorius I, after his death, anathematized by name along with the Monothelites by the Third Council of Constantinople (First Trullan) in 680?

Yes Leo II did ease this by calling it "imprudent economy of silence".

 

[redleghunter]

Here's one of many Team Francis member to look at: Cardinal Tobin: Catechism language ‘very unfortunate’ on homosexuality | Catholic Herald

 

[chevyontheriver]

Appreciate the response, this must be a difficult thing to experience over years. This doesn't really sound like heresy to me, what it sounds like is classic liberal theology. It is constantly going around redefining traditional terms, a little here a little there. I guess now at least I understand the nature of the controversy. Thanks for the candor.

Grace and peace,
Mark

For me 'classic liberal theology' is quite often heretical, and that does seem to be the playbook.

 

[mark kennedy]

For me 'classic liberal theology' is quite often heretical, and that does seem to be the playbook.

Systematic unbelief is how I would describe it, it's source is usually in secular academics and it's origins are relatively modern.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Ok, thanks. I didn’t see the 20 page letter. I’ll find it and look it over.

The 20 page thing IS what this is about, and who signed it. Originally about 20 signers. Last I heard about 30. Probably more now. To me it is powerful that Adian Nichols signed it.

 

[Sparagmos]

The 20 page thing IS what this is about, and who signed it. Originally about 20 signers. Last I heard about 30. Probably more now. To me it is powerful that Adian Nichols signed it.

I’m aware, but like I said I couldn’t find it despite clicking on the OP link, a link within that link, and another link.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So he is a heretic?

That is the complicated question. It needs an answer for Catholics.

 

[redleghunter]

I’m aware, but like I said I couldn’t find it despite clicking on the OP link, a link within that link, and another link.

I think I linked this twice in the thread:

Open Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church, Easter Week, 2019

 

[redleghunter]

That is the complicated question. It needs an answer for Catholics.

At the very least he has been ambiguous. Which is a trait the faithful do not need in an age of great confusion.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well, I'd simply say that the petition is wrong on at least one account (the issue of the remarried receiving Communion), because in the history of the Catholic Church, the remarried were able to Commune, and thus, the full participation of those remarried after divorce can not be heretical, as indicated in the historical account below:
[Quoted from "Marriage: and Orthodox Perspective"; John Meyendorff
St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1975; XII. Divorce (p.54)]

That would be an Orthodox perspective on Catholic teaching. The Catholic perspective on Catholic teaching is that a valid marriage lasts as long as both spouses are alive.

 

[setst777]

Renowned philosopher signs petition calling on bishops to investigate Pope for heresy

May 6, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – World-renowned Catholic philosopher Dr. Josef Seifert has signed a petition calling on the bishops of the world to “investigate Pope Francis for heresy.”

The petition was launched by one of the signers of the April 30 Open Letter to Bishops where 19 prominent clergymen and scholars accused Pope Francis of committing heresy and asked the bishops of the Catholic Church, to whom the open letter is addressed, to "take the steps necessary to deal with the grave situation" of a pope committing this crime.

Seifert, president of the new laity-led Academy for Life and close friend of the late Pope St. John Paul II, defended signing the petition in a written statement provided to LifeSiteNews (see full statement below).

More at link: Renowned philosopher signs petition calling on bishops to investigate Pope for heresy

I definitely agree with the grounds for such an action based on the seven points brought up in the "Open Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church."

Some of the Passages given in 'The Letter to the Bishops' to support their statements against the Popes public heretical declarations are as follows, in context:

Ephesians 5:1-10 (WEB)
5 Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 Walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling fragrance. 3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks.
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore don’t be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, 9 for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, 10 proving what is well pleasing to the Lord.

Galatians 5:16-24 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,[a] 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (WEB)
9 Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortionists, will inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

Jude 5-7 (WEB)
5 Now I desire to remind you, though you already know this, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who didn’t believe. 6 Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Romans 1:15-32 (WEB)
15 So, as much as is in me, I am eager to preach the Good News to you also who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. 21 Because, knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. 28 Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil habits, secret slanderers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 3:8;31 (WEB)
8 Why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), “Let us do evil, that good may come?” Those who say so are justly condemned... 31 Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As though the personal opinion of one layman is going to cause the bishops of the Catholic Church to take action against the representative of Jesus Christ on Earth.

It's not just one guy. This letter has 30 signatories so far, some of them quite notable. But it comes in a wider context. That is the four cardinals and their Dubia, the Filial Correction, The Vigano letters about what pope Francis knew about ex-Cardinal McCarrick, and the Thomas Weinandy letter.

Jesus Christ promised the first Pope "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". No Pope in the 2,000 year history of the Church has ever committed heresy. Some have been poor leaders, a few have led immoral personal lives, but none has ever committed heresy. If one of them were to do so, Jesus Christ would become a liar, or at least a fake.

Not exactly. No pope has successfully inserted heresy into official Catholic teaching. Popes are infallible in their official teaching but not at all in their personal beliefs, off the cuff remarks, who they appoint, and what they think.

 

[Sparagmos]

I think I linked this twice in the thread:

Open Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church, Easter Week, 2019

Are ya’ll trying to make me feel bad for not seeing it and asking for help? LOL, I’ll remember not to ask again...