Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

[RestoreTheJoy]

Yes... but where is God in that? A man and woman of any faith or none can do that.

Well, scripture is always read in conjunction with scripture. Malachi 2:14 reiterates the husband/wife/God covenant in another context, since our relationship with God is a covenant too.

“Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.”

 

[Paidiske]

Well, scripture is always read in conjunction with scripture. Malachi 2:14 reiterates the husband/wife/God covenant in another context, since our relationship with God is a covenant too.

“Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.”

But Malachi is talking to God's covenant people, Israel, whose marriages were governed by God's Torah; so that is true for them in a way that is not necessarily true for everybody. That doesn't mean no one else has valid marriage!

 

[KCfromNC]

It is an opinion based on fact. You can find it yourself. Kids want mom and dad to love each other and them, above all things. Despite how this is twisted today by those with an agenda to advance.

Throwing out more opinions on top of opinions doesn't turn the original assertion into a fact.

 

[Kalevalatar]

With rights comes responsibility; responsibility toward oneself and responsibility toward one another. We Christians are called to treat each other with respect, the way we would want to be treated and the way we would treat Jesus Christ, and to pay attention to the plank in our own eye instead of that speck of sawdust in someone else's. Self-righteousness is not a very Christian thing, since we all are sinners. That the sins of some are obvious does not mean that the sins of others and the sins of our own are any less severe.

 

[Tom 1]

Now before you jump onboard and say 'Of course its ethical' consider the current case that has dominated Australian media and Australian sport in particular.

Israel Folau is one of Australia's (if not the world's) greatest Rugby Union players. He is a match winner. He is talented beyond belief and has won an array of national and international sporting awards. He is currently in the Australian Rugby Union team called 'The Wallabies'.

Despite Israel's strong physical appearance, he is a highly personable, gentle and kind individual. He is extremely likeable. Israel is a Christian of the evangelistic ilk.

Rugby Union has as a very strong code of conduct. You will rarely see referee abuse from players - it prides itself on respect for all players, the referees and supporters. International players have particular responsibilities as so many people, particularly juniors, see them as role models. This added responsibility to acknowledge that whats said publicly must accord with the code of conduct, whether its said on the field or off it, is reinforced in player contracts.

Israel, despite being a very nice person has repeatedly made the following types of statements:
That those that are gay, unmarried people having sexual relationships, those that drink to excess....[the list goes on] are sinful and all going to hell.

Now Israel, of course, is making biblical references inline with his christian beliefs. He's not saying terrible things per se....HOWEVER - it has clearly been a breach of his contract and despite just recently signing a four year contract and despite being Australia's shining star - he has been sacked.

Israel Folau to be sacked by Rugby Australia over homophobic comments

Australian rugby's position is that it goes to great lengths to be inclusive. It is not concerned with who you choose to love, or that your mother is a single mother, or your father is in some sort of defacto relationship. It does not want those representing the sporting code to alter that perception with statements indicating that those following the sport are lesser individuals and are in some way bad for their sexual choices or marital status.

So the debate - religious freedom of speech versus the right of a sporting to code to insist its code of conduct is followed.

This has cost Israel Millions of dollars. He has lost sponsorship worth millions and his International rugby career is ended unless he can change his public statements.

Context is everything - maybe he was upfront about his beliefs when he signed the contract, and they didn't take him seriously, or didn't think it would be an issue? Just from the story it's not possible to know if he talked with the management about this before he signed, or not. He doesn't seem to have an issue with saying what he thinks.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Even if he had not said they were going to hell - to say that they are all sinful (AKA Bad if you looking at it from outside of christianity) - The issue is that he stated his religious conviction publicly regarding this cohort. Was that ethical to do given he signed a contract that bound him to a code of conduct.

I can see both sides of this viewpoint to a degree. Right now saying anything that is anti-acceptance of the LGBT lifestyle can be a social or economical disaster for companies. As a representative of the companies, they may fear him saying his honest views on this can be taken as the company itself endorsing the beliefs as okay since they continue to employ him. This can lead to people getting angered or starting to boycott, which we've seen before.

On the other hand, what a persona personally feels about politics or religions should not influence their non-secular employment. By making these statements on a personal social media account, he was not mixing his beliefs with work, and is saying his personal beliefs as a human, not the employed rugby player.

The argument by many is if you work with the public (teachers have gotten in trouble for their facebook posts) or a celebrity, you should have to keep these beliefs to yourself and not be honest on what you think. That's hardly fair, either.

Ultimately I don't think he should be fired for it. People need to learn that promoting diversity means accepting all opinions on this matter. If another celebrity endorsed that all love matters and that LGBT marriage is great and all that, they don't tend to get into trouble at all or fired. That's a double standard. It's not the problem of speaking up about your personal beliefs --- if it's you don't agree with the current popular mindset of these beliefs, then you're "sacked". :/ That's discriminatory and unfair. People need thicker skins and move on if they see someone *gasps* disagrees with them. Are we wanting to promote that only athletes who are not Christian or do not adhere to the traditional Christian Values about marriage should be the only athletes allowed to be employed? Dangerous precedent, but I see this spreading.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Looking further into the article, it seems he made a comment on twitter because he wanted to put his thoughts out there on a news article he was sharing, which is common practice amongst celebrities and the rest of us. It wasn't that he was just making random tweets obsessing about this issue.

"Israel has failed to understand that the expectation of him as a Rugby Australia and NSW Waratahs employee is that he cannot share material on social media that condemns, vilifies or discriminates against people on the basis of their sexuality. - I can understand this mindset for its celebrity employees, but there is still a double standard. Basically it's stating if you fully accept promotion of this lifestyle, it's fine to say in private and public. If you don't, it's fine to feel it privately but if you say it publically, you're going to be considered "wrong". In that way these companies ARE taking one side of the argument at heart on what they agree with.

 

[loveofourlord]

I can see both sides of this viewpoint to a degree. Right now saying anything that is anti-acceptance of the LGBT lifestyle can be a social or economical disaster for companies. As a representative of the companies, they may fear him saying his honest views on this can be taken as the company itself endorsing the beliefs as okay since they continue to employ him. This can lead to people getting angered or starting to boycott, which we've seen before.

On the other hand, what a persona personally feels about politics or religions should not influence their non-secular employment. By making these statements on a personal social media account, he was not mixing his beliefs with work, and is saying his personal beliefs as a human, not the employed rugby player.

The argument by many is if you work with the public (teachers have gotten in trouble for their facebook posts) or a celebrity, you should have to keep these beliefs to yourself and not be honest on what you think. That's hardly fair, either.

Ultimately I don't think he should be fired for it. People need to learn that promoting diversity means accepting all opinions on this matter. If another celebrity endorsed that all love matters and that LGBT marriage is great and all that, they don't tend to get into trouble at all or fired. That's a double standard. It's not the problem of speaking up about your personal beliefs --- if it's you don't agree with the current popular mindset of these beliefs, then you're "sacked". :/ That's discriminatory and unfair. People need thicker skins and move on if they see someone *gasps* disagrees with them. Are we wanting to promote that only athletes who are not Christian or do not adhere to the traditional Christian Values about marriage should be the only athletes allowed to be employed? Dangerous precedent, but I see this spreading.

I don't think we should be tolerant or respectful of beliefs that are harmful, `it's been show many times that suicide in LGBT can be linked to treatment such as saying they will go to hell, or how their familes treat them because they are gay. I don't think we should be tolerant of intolerance. one side wants to attack and say mean and hurtful things about another group, other side wants people to be respectful of everyone. saying who someone is, who they were born as, what they are is a sin or they are going to hell for it isn't loving or respectful. It be no different then saying blacks are sinners and going to hell like has been done in the past ocasionally.

Should we be respectful and tolerant of beliefs of the race realists that think blacks are inferior to whites and dumber and more prone to crime by nature and that we should send them back to africa because they be more happier there? You may think your beliefs about gays are right, but no one else has the obligation to think so or respect it, especially when it's shown to do harm.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

But Malachi is talking to God's covenant people, Israel, whose marriages were governed by God's Torah; so that is true for them in a way that is not necessarily true for everybody. That doesn't mean no one else has valid marriage!

And God's Word is talking to US today. Moral principles continue forever.

 

[RDKirk]

I like the way Denzel Washington handles his belief. He is a prominent person in an industry that is certainly liberal, but he is also a Christian.

But you don't see him make a public to-do about it. Most American Christians would like to see him make grand public gestures so that we would have a celebrity to crow about.

Rather, Washington's ministry is with those he works with. He is in a position that young actors ask him for mentoring, and he does. He teaches them his acting methods and, when they are leaning in close and open to every word he says, he teaches them how his philosophy of life and his faith in Christ has upheld and guided him.

Now, Washington could go on Twitter and be that celebrity Christian we all want him to be.

But he wouldn't reach the people he's reaching now.

 

[Paidiske]

And God's Word is talking to US today. Moral principles continue forever.

Sure. So we today can read the passage from Malachi and understand God's condemnation of domestic violence.

What that passage doesn't do for us today is establish a doctrine of marriage which says only Christians - and presumably Jews - are validly married.

 

[Zoii]

Context is everything - maybe he was upfront about his beliefs when he signed the contract, and they didn't take him seriously, or didn't think it would be an issue? Just from the story it's not possible to know if he talked with the management about this before he signed, or not. He doesn't seem to have an issue with saying what he thinks.

The Code of conduct is something ALL players at every level must abide by, and he would have been aware of - even the junior players are aware of it.

he was spoken to directly and formally on previous occasions before this action was taken.

 

[Zoii]

The argument by many is if you work with the public (teachers have gotten in trouble for their facebook posts) or a celebrity, you should have to keep these beliefs to yourself and not be honest on what you think. That's hardly fair, either.

people of all religions play rugby. people are free to express that religion privately or publicly. His problem was that he contravened specifics sections which were about exclusivity. Dont alienate on the grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, age, marital status.

Israel had such an opportunity to speak positive message regarding his religion. Instead he chose to attack:
If you dont believe in a Christian God you are bad and will burn in hell for eternity
If you are in an unmarried relationship you are bad and will burn in hell for eternity
If you are gay you are bad and will burn in hell for eternity
If you drink alcohol you are bad and will burn in hell for eternity
I cant see why he just didn't think - yea OK - Im might be citing a verse from the bible but heck - who am I recruiting to God with these messages. I mean really - would anyone think its OK for a teacher who was Moslem employed at a christian school, to start posting tirades condemning Christianity?... definitely not - in fact that Moslem is unlikely to get a job there in the first place as it would be understood he would not be able to maintain the expected code of conduct re religious ideology.

Ultimately I don't think he should be fired for it. People need to learn that promoting diversity means accepting all opinions on this matter.

Well he is appealing the decision. After that it may well end up in a Federal court. What an unnecessary situation has been created. I am really annoyed with him.

He has Christians in his team that are terribly frustrated with him. Another high profile player in the national team is a strong christian who is supportive of same sex marriage - thus the team is frustrated that religious views are made as a divisive component of the culture - that is totally contrary to the culture of rugby.

 

[Zoii]

Looking further into the article, it seems he made a comment on twitter because he wanted to put his thoughts out there on a news article he was sharing

No thats not accurate
He has made some 'your all going to hell' type posts in his public profile Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.

He has been formally counselled by Rugby Australia twice before regarding this.

 

[Citanul]

He has Christians in his team that are terribly frustrated with him. Another high profile player in the national team is a strong christian who is supportive of same sex marriage - thus the team is frustrated that religious views are made as a divisive component of the culture - that is totally contrary to the culture of rugby.

It's also affected other Christian rugby players' ability to tweet. Even inoffensive tweets are being hit by criticism because of Falou's comment, basically a guilty by association sort of thing.

Australia Rugby Face New Religious Row - Australia | Rugby365

 

[RDKirk]

It's also affected other Christian rugby players' ability to tweet. Even inoffensive tweets are being hit by criticism because of Falou's comment, basically a guilty by association sort of thing.

Australia Rugby Face New Religious Row - Australia | Rugby365

As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." -- Romans 2

 

[Zoii]

It's also affected other Christian rugby players' ability to tweet. Even inoffensive tweets are being hit by criticism because of Falou's comment, basically a guilty by association sort of thing.

Australia Rugby Face New Religious Row - Australia | Rugby365

Is this entering a debate in South Africa?

 

[Citanul]

Is this entering a debate in South Africa?

Not really. I've seen/heard some comments, but they basically amount to "What an idiot - he deserves to be fired". In general there's no real issue with sportspeople being open about their faith, Christian or otherwise, but the feeling is that Folau's comments crossed a line.

 

[Zoii]

Not really. I've seen/heard some comments, but they basically amount to "What an idiot - he deserves to be fired". In general there's no real issue with sportspeople being open about their faith, Christian or otherwise, but the feeling is that Folau's comments crossed a line.

Yea - if only he approahed hi evangelism in a positive way:
You are all welcome to our church
Great to see you juniors out there on Saturday - Jesus loves you all

bla bla...a zillion messages he could have used from his elevated platform that would have extolled Christianity and yet not be divisive or hurtful.

 

[stevil]

Despite Israel's strong physical appearance, he is a highly personable, gentle and kind individual. He is extremely likeable. Israel is a Christian of the evangelistic ilk.

Israel, despite being a very nice person has repeatedly made the following types of statements:
That those that are gay, unmarried people having sexual relationships, those that drink to excess....[the list goes on] are sinful and all going to hell.

Society contains many different people from many walks of life. As people with common citizenship living in common communities and interacting with each other, we all need to learn to get on with each other. One aspect of getting on with each other is to not poke our noses into each other's business and publicly shame or criticise people. Shaming an individual person is one thing, but shaming a whole group of people is quite another thing. If we learn not shame people, not to pick on people of certain groups (and specifically, minorities) and especially if we don't pick on a minority group which is already being picked on, then perhaps our society can be more friendly to each other and to ourselves as well.

Now the way society has been developing is that societies are coming to the conclusion that gay people are not dangerous, that adults can choose who they are to love and who they are to be affectionate with. This hurts no-one. A compassionate and nice person will treat gay people as if they are people and not be concerned about who that person chooses to have romantic relations with. Not be judgemental, not call them out, not shame them, not threaten them with hell.

Many people in society are not Christians. It doesn't make sense for a Christian to run around pointing at strangers (regardless if they are Christian or not) and telling them they are going to hell.

If people are interested in Christian beliefs, they will either go to church and learn, or perhaps ask a Christian some questions. A nice Christian will answer those questions but will not simply tell people on the street that they are going to hell.

If you are the type of Christian that feels compelled to win people over to Christianity. Then do it with love. Be a nice Christian, be charitable, be a role model, share and care, help people in need, be pleasant. Telling people they are going to hell is the opposite of pleasant.

Now Israel, of course, is making biblical references inline with his christian beliefs.

He is entitled to have his Christian beliefs, but others around him are entitled to not share his beliefs. Gays are entitled not to be picked on and harassed.

He's not saying terrible things per se....

Yes he is saying horrible things. It is horrible to single out the gay community and publicly decree that they are all going to hell.
Surely there are nicer quotes from the bible that Christians can post and that won't be seen as harassment of minority groups.

HOWEVER - it has clearly been a breach of his contract and despite just recently signing a four year contract and despite being Australia's shining star - he has been sacked.

Fair enough too. I don't tolerate people or groups of people picking on or harassing other groups.
Being a public figure (sporting star) comes with a social responsibility to help unite people and get people feeling included and happy. Not to incite people to pick on minorities.

So the debate - religious freedom of speech versus the right of a sporting to code to insist its code of conduct is followed.

Again, why can't those religious folks quote nicer parts of their scripture? Why be compelled to quote parts that tell minority groups that they are sinners and are going to hell?

I mean, a non Christian hearing the statement "you are going to hell" is either going to be [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed off by you, scared of you, or just simply hate you. They are not going to be compelled to become a Christian and to tow the Christian line. If you want them to tow the line, you need to first win them over, them slam them with your rules.

This has cost Israel Millions of dollars. He has lost sponsorship worth millions and his International rugby career is ended unless he can change his public statements.

This is nothing compared to the costs borne by those minorities who are constantly being picked on, being attacked by hate groups, being thrown out of their families, being de-friended etc.

We should not be inciting hate, we should be growing respect for each other, showing charity, allowing people to be themselves, daring to be different etc.