What exactly did Jesus Save us from?....

FireDragon76

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And the others?

These innocent humans with eternal souls, that have done nothing of their own control and are not even aware of anything other than warm, cold, hunger, pain and touch? These so called "non elect" will be damned... with no conscious knowledge as to why or what they have done? These innocent souls that can't even understand the concept of control of their bladder, let alone faith in their creator, right and wrong.... They will be damned?

Calvin didn't actually teach that. He assumed Christ's blessing of children meant that children that died young were elected for salvation. In doing so he was just reflecting a common Christian attitude towards children and death. That's presumably a reason we still to refer to the feast commemorating Herod's slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem as the "Feast of the Holy Innocents".
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think that's focusing too much on a strictly forensic view of salvation, even if there is an element of truth in it. Sin, Death, and the Devil is exactly the sort of language my pastor uses.

I think that if you remove the forensic element, "Sin, Death, and the Devil" doesn't make much sense.

We've sinned by breaking God's law.
We are subject to death because of God's curse.
The devil accuses us because of our sin and demands that God exact his justice.

When Jesus takes the punishment for our sins and gives us his righteousness (all forensic), then we are justified in the sight of the law, we are free from God's curse, and we are not liable to the accusations of the devil.

Remove the forensic piece and what do you have left?

This reminds me of the part of the bible where it says sin is magnified by the law, and also when it is said, sin when fully grown becomes death, and also the power of the devil which is death.

So you have it all there: The role of law in the cultivation of sin, to death, to the demonic. Tie in the Romans 7 type of sin and it's really just us being saved from ourselves.
 
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mark kennedy

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no Gods wrath does not abide on the unredeemed at this point in time.
I liked some of what you said following that but wanted to address this statement. There is a sense in which wrath is imminent, coming at the day of judgment. There is also the fact that God's wrath does remain on the children of disobedience:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” (Romans 1:18)

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:6)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. (Col. 3:5-6)
The sin that brings wrath is also a curse, all by itself. We have all heard the testimonies of those who escaped the depravity of their sin nature through faith in Christ. Things like, 'suppressing the truth in unrighteousness' (Rom. 1:8). 'The wrath of God remains' (John 3:36), and of course the wrath of God at the end of the age (Col. 3:5-6). You have to ask yourself, what is sin presently costing the sinner. The suppression of the truth, the weight of guilt and foreboding, and the gnawing pain of knowing it is deserved. More importantly sometimes the worst part of a sin, is the damage the sin is doing to you right now. If we are going to have a coherent message as believers there is one reason that should outweigh the foreboding of wrath:

But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. (Psalm 130:4)
I mean think about it, why would I fear God if I can't escape his wrath. But if there is a chance at forgiveness, that could change your attitude I think. I know it changed mine.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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JacksBratt

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Calvin didn't actually teach that. He assumed Christ's blessing of children meant that children that died young were elected for salvation. In doing so he was just reflecting a common Christian attitude towards children and death. That's presumably a reason we still to refer to the feast commemorating Herod's slaughter of the babies in Bethlehem as the "Feast of the Holy Innocents".
I don't know the teachings of "Calvin" as I have not had the desire to study such a theology.

I have no doubt that any human that does not reach a mental capacity necessary to understand and consciously grasp the concept of "right", "wrong", sin, salvation, the gospel..... will never be counted as guilty of things that they are ignorant of.

That would erase the concept of God being Loving, gracious and merciful.

However, I was kinda hoping for "Tree of Life" to give an answer and explanation for their way of thinking.
 
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RaymondG

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These are all interesting topics. I posted quite a few passages in the OP in context.

Did I miss you addressing the OP?

Yes you did miss it.....but there are some who would see it.

I answered the title of the thread.... I could refute interpretations of scriptures.. but that would only serve my own ego.....which i have no desire to do.

God tells us to procreate.

By worrying about what will become of babies is not trusting in God to do His will. You would in effect be saying your will be done.

We are told to be fruitful and multiply and to bring up our children in the ways of the Lord.

That’s what God says.

Satan wants us to have sex without consequences, abortion and infanticide.

The weakness of the flesh is always telling us “that’s too hard to do” when obeying God is concerned.

There are other options besides creating objects for wrath or killing objects to prevent them from becoming objects of wrath....... One can remain celibate........Is this too hard to do to save one from the wrath that would ensue if they are born into the world?

These are idea, by the way, that should be pondered by those who believe babies are condemned the day they are born/conceived...... And I am not one of them.
 
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eleos1954

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When speaking to Jeremiah about the New Covenant, YHWH declares:

Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

English Standard Version
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

God does not break His covenants, but people do .... several examples of this, one being Mt. Sinai

here's the Greek

phrase - so they will not

strongs

bilti: not, except
Original Word: בִּלְתִּי
Part of Speech: substantive; particle of negation; adverb; conjunction
Transliteration: bilti
Phonetic Spelling: (bil-tee')
Definition: not, except
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from balah
Definition
not, except
NASB Translation
besides (2), except (3), except* (1), less than* (1), moreover (1), neither (1), no (15), no longer (1), no* (1), nor (2), nothing (3), other than (1), prevent* (2), so (3), stop (1), unceasing* (1), unless (3), unless* (1), until (1), without (4).
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Thank you. And if one is not in Christ does God’s wrath still abide on that person?
Abraham's faith counted him righteous. Noah was a faithful servant to God and found righteous. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I AM, is God in the flesh. He existed before the foundation of the world. He came in the flesh to save the sinner. He holds the keys to the Kingdom of God. If one is not in Christ, that name will be blotted out of the Book of Life thus thrown into the lake of fire. So yes.
 
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fhansen

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Answer? The wrath of God.

The OP is a bit long but establishes the point we are saved from the wrath of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14: NASB

14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

The wrath of God is mentioned in the NT as the justice of God meted out to the unrepentant wicked.

In our post-modern society mentioning a wrathful God evokes thoughts of an angry deity who is a monster to mete out punishment taking pleasure in the afflictions of His own creation. But is this the Biblical portrayal of a Just and Loving God who is Righteous and will not let unrighteousness go unpunished?

First let's dispel this "monster God" of post-modernism.

The wrath of God is not a capricious, impulsive or arbitrary outburst of anger as some try to promote and thus God is not wrathful.

The wrath of God is a settled determined response of a Holy God against sin.

As Anglican Bishop J.I. Packer is quoted:

“God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil” (Knowing God, 151).

Which Packer is referring to the Apostle Paul to the Romans:

Romans 2: NASB

1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

Therefore, God's wrath is just.

As sinners needing Christ as Lord and Savior, God's wrath is to be feared. Feared because all are sinners (Romans 3:23), that we are separated from God needing to be at peace with Him (Romans 5:1) and God promises eternal punishment for those not in Christ (Matthew 25:46).

Therefore, we are to fear God's wrath.

The wrath of God is also consistent in both the OT and NT Scriptures. Some try to separate a God of the OT and a God of the NT. This was the argument put forth by Marcion and his views Marcionism were rejected by the early Church. However, when we examine the Scriptures we see consistency:

Jeremiah 30: NASB
23 Behold, the tempest of the LORD!
Wrath has gone forth,
A sweeping tempest;
It will burst on the head of the wicked.


24The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and until He has accomplished
The intent of His heart;
In the latter days you will understand this.

Nahum 1: NASB
2A jealous and avenging God is the LORD;
The LORD is avenging and wrathful.
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.


3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.

Romans 1: NASB
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Revelation 19: NASB
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Therefore, God's wrath is consistent in the OT and NT.

As we can see laid out above is the Biblical truth on the wrath of God and the consequences. In the next thread we will speak of how "all have sinned" was remedied by God before the foundations of the earth. Concluding with the spoiler:

Romans 5: NASB
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
There are two sides to the coin. We're saved from the natural consequences (hell) of being and staying in opposition to God's will: selfish, self-righteous, sinful, proud, arrogant, haughty, rebellious, full of falsehood. But, by being reconciled, we're saved unto righteousness with the consequence of heaven: being in the presence of sheer ineffable Goodness. This is why it's so important to understand that we're not saved by faith in the sense of solely believing, as if the mere fact of belief saves us, but rather by that which faith is meant to lead to: justice/righteousness/ love-as the result of being reconciled with and establishing communion with God, as we turn back to Him, responding to His calling, to His overtures of grace. This is why Jesus came-to reconcile man with God by revealing the true "face" of the Father, by giving us the full "knowledge of God"- with every word He spoke and deed He performed- when the time was ripe, so that we may know Him, and have something to place our faith in. So faith is the first step in or act of justice for man.

"No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD." Jer 31:34

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
 
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DeepWater

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A few things would include...

Jesus saves us from the Law that once judged us as sinners. "you are not under the law but under Grace"
Jesus saves us from damnation. John 3:36
Jesus saves us from ourselves, by giving us the power of the Holy Spirit so that we can control ourselves and live a righteous life, more and more, as we mature as a believer.
 
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redleghunter

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God's wrath doesn't necessarily go away even after we are redeemed. We still aren't necessarily delivered from all the temporal penalties of sin. Even Christ endured God's wrath in exactly the same way. But what is different for the Christian is that they endure God's wrath with the gifts of faith, hope, and love.

Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of Godthrough Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
 
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JacksBratt

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Abraham's faith counted him righteous. Noah was a faithful servant to God and found righteous. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I AM, is God in the flesh. He existed before the foundation of the world. He came in the flesh to save the sinner. He holds the keys to the Kingdom of God. If one is not in Christ, that name will be blotted out of the Book of Life thus thrown into the lake of fire. So yes.
Also, if you notice... names are blotted out when the person is found to be unrighteous. Thus, everyone's name is in the book to start with... This means that babies and infants are saved... there would be no reason to blot their names out.
 
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timothyu

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I don't believe we are ever saved from the Devil... He, and his minions are constantly tempting us and deceiving us in this life....
And he will have no place in the Kingdom. He has done a good job keeping the Kingdom absent within religion.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
 
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redleghunter

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no Gods wrath does not abide on the unredeemed at this point in time. Jesus starts his ministry in the temple in (luke 4:14) he is given the scroll of isaiah and reads from (isaiah 61:1-2) but stops reading mid way through (isaiah 61:2) closes the book and hands it back. what did he choose not to read. the words and the day of vengeance of our God. Jesus then went on to declare himself a prophet and gave examples of non jews being healed while jews trusting in who they are by birth not receiving from God. this whole thing angered the pharisees and they tried to push him over the cliff. Jesus started his ministry in grace and the teachers of law did not like it. grace walked past the law and the law could not touch the grace of God.
Wrath already at work.

Romans 1: NASB

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
 
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redleghunter

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There are other options besides creating objects for wrath or killing objects to prevent them from becoming objects of wrath....... One can remain celibate........Is this too hard to do to save one from the wrath that would ensue if they are born into the world?

These are idea, by the way, that should be pondered by those who believe babies are condemned the day they are born/conceived...... And I am not one of them.
Or we could have the Glory of God in mind with regards to procreation.
 
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redleghunter

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English Standard Version
I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

God does not break His covenants, but people do .... several examples of this, one being Mt. Sinai

here's the Greek

phrase - so they will not

strongs

bilti: not, except
Original Word: בִּלְתִּי
Part of Speech: substantive; particle of negation; adverb; conjunction
Transliteration: bilti
Phonetic Spelling: (bil-tee')
Definition: not, except
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from balah
Definition
not, except
NASB Translation
besides (2), except (3), except* (1), less than* (1), moreover (1), neither (1), no (15), no longer (1), no* (1), nor (2), nothing (3), other than (1), prevent* (2), so (3), stop (1), unceasing* (1), unless (3), unless* (1), until (1), without (4).
So you agree this is Godly fear?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Also, if you notice... names are blotted out when the person is found to be unrighteous. Thus, everyone's name is in the book to start with... This means that babies and infants are saved... there would be no reason to blot their names out.
Yep, I agree.
 
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