What exactly did Jesus Save us from?....

[Neogaia777]

And Sin, Hell, Death, and the Grave...

Does He use His wrath to discipline...? And if so, and if we are or if we do become truly obedient, (and eventually become loving and faithful and faith-filled, ect), was that due to "us", or "Him"...?

God Bless!

Hell, Death, and the Grave, are each "separate things", BTW...

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

Endless sleep.

Like Rip Van Winkle?

 

[FireDragon76]

“When the devil accuses us and says, ‘You are a sinner and therefore damned,’ we should answer, ‘Because you say I am a sinner, I will be righteous and saved.’ ‘No,’ says the devil, ‘you will be damned.’ And I reply, ‘No, for I fly to Christ, who gave himself for my sins. Satan, you will not prevail against me when you try to terrify me by setting forth the greatness of my sins and try to bring me into heaviness, distrust, despair, hatred, contempt and blasphemy against God. On the contrary, when you say I am a sinner, you give me armor and weapons against yourself, so that with your own sword I may cut your throat and tread you under my feet, for Christ died for sinners. . . . As often as you object that I am a sinner, so often you remind me of the benefit of Christ my Redeemer, on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins. So when you say I am a sinner, you do not terrify me but comfort me immeasurably.'”

Yes. It's very unusual of course in the 21st century to argue with the Devil (outside of perhaps Pentecostalism?) but it has wider practical applications when we understand that Luther saw faith in Christ as the solution to humanity's existential plight in a number of ways, other than just God as a cosmic traffic cop who has pulled us over for speeding, proverbially speaking.

I think it also helped I came from an Orthodox background where the Devil was very much real, I could immediately understand what really bothered Luther.

 

[redleghunter]

We aren't to fear (be afraid) of God .... it's about love. God is love.

When speaking to Jeremiah about the New Covenant, YHWH declares:

Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

 

[redleghunter]

Ourselves.

We are ourselves wrath?

 

[redleghunter]

It's very unusual of course in the 21st century to argue with the Devil (outside of perhaps Pentecostalism?)

 

[Neogaia777]

And Sin, Hell, Death, and the Grave...

Does He use His wrath to discipline...? And if so, and if we are or if we do become truly obedient, (and eventually become loving and faithful and faith-filled, ect), was that due to "us", or "Him"...?

God Bless!

Hell, Death, and the Grave, are each "separate things", BTW...

God Bless!

"Hell" is the Lake of Fire, Death is eternal death in Hades or what may feel like eternal death or eternally dying, like with the rich man and Lazarus Parable, He (the rich man) was not in the Lake of Fire or Hell, but Hades, a "holding place", until the time comes when some of them might be thrown into the Lake of Fire or "Hell"...

The Grave is Sheol, or are what happens to people that are not resurrected, or not ever resurrected, or are not resurrected "yet"... The Bible might say that these ones are "asleep" maybe...? Or at least, that may be the best way to describe it to us...

Those in the OT were not given nor offered eternal life after death here, at that time... The way they thought to "continue themselves" after this (mainly) was by having children... And were all about blessings in the "here and now", and in this life... Many of them are said to have gone to "Sheol", a Hebrew word that means "Grave" or "the Grave... And they are not said to be "conscious" maybe, or maybe not in the way we understand the term, or those terms pertaining to "consciousness" or "being conscious or aware", or whatever, anyway, Jesus and after Jesus, He was the "firstborn of or from the dead", and it was only after Him that eternal life at all, was really open to any of us now or afterward back then, in and under the NC, only through Him, was the way to eternal life, in some place, or other places than simply just going to Sheol, ect...

Maybe in another place very much different from this one maybe, a place of dreams perhaps...?

Jesus was said to, before He ascended after being resurrected, to have "gone back and woken, or to wake those ones, or some of those ones up from sleep" in Sheol, and also to have gone into Hades for three days, and preached there before He left, maybe hoping or getting His chance to save some there, ect... And taking them all with Him when He ascended, ect...

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

Are we able to save ourselves?

I think that’s the point.

 

[FireDragon76]

When speaking to Jeremiah about the New Covenant, YHWH declares:

Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

I think that's hard to understand in the modern context, as close as we can come in the concept of reverence, without delving into what Rudolf Otto discussed in his work, The Idea of the Holy. The only aspect of culture that really preserves this sort of intuition now days is gothic or cosmic horror literature.

 

[timothyu]

We are ourselves wrath?

Fear and wrath is the power behind the institutions and governments of man.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus came to save us out of a world of sin....... Yet most decide to continue in it until their body dies....

He tells us today is the day of salvation.....We say, we will be saved(heaven) in the future.
He tells us the He conquered death and hell......we say we all must die.
He says he that liveth and believeth in me shall never die......we say that's impossible and desire, instead to be raised from a grave.

but such is life

These are all interesting topics. I posted quite a few passages in the OP in context.

Did I miss you addressing the OP?

 

[redleghunter]

Fear and wrath is the power behind the institutions and governments of man.

Wow that was pretty deep. Like it.

 

[mark kennedy]

Answer? The wrath of God.

The OP is a bit long but establishes the point we are saved from the wrath of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14: NASB

14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

The wrath of God is mentioned in the NT as the justice of God meted out to the unrepentant wicked.

In our post-modern society mentioning a wrathful God evokes thoughts of an angry deity who is a monster to mete out punishment taking pleasure in the afflictions of His own creation. But is this the Biblical portrayal of a Just and Loving God who is Righteous and will not let unrighteousness go unpunished?

First let's dispel this "monster God" of post-modernism.

The wrath of God is not a capricious, impulsive or arbitrary outburst of anger as some try to promote and thus God is not wrathful.

The wrath of God is a settled determined response of a Holy God against sin.

As Anglican Bishop J.I. Packer is quoted:

“God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil” (Knowing God, 151). ​

Which Packer is referring to the Apostle Paul to the Romans:

Romans 2: NASB

1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.​

Therefore, God's wrath is just.

As sinners needing Christ as Lord and Savior, God's wrath is to be feared. Feared because all are sinners (Romans 3:23), that we are separated from God needing to be at peace with Him (Romans 5:1) and God promises eternal punishment for those not in Christ (Matthew 25:46).

Therefore, we are to fear God's wrath.

The wrath of God is also consistent in both the OT and NT Scriptures. Some try to separate a God of the OT and a God of the NT. This was the argument put forth by Marcion and his views Marcionism were rejected by the early Church. However, when we examine the Scriptures we see consistency:

Jeremiah 30: NASB
23 Behold, the tempest of the LORD!
Wrath has gone forth,
A sweeping tempest;
It will burst on the head of the wicked.

24The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and until He has accomplished
The intent of His heart;
In the latter days you will understand this.
Nahum 1: NASB
2A jealous and avenging God is the LORD;
The LORD is avenging and wrathful.
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.

3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.​

Romans 1: NASB
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.​

Revelation 19: NASB
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”​

Therefore, God's wrath is consistent in the OT and NT.

As we can see laid out above is the Biblical truth on the wrath of God and the consequences. In the next thread we will speak of how "all have sinned" was remedied by God before the foundations of the earth. Concluding with the spoiler:

Romans 5: NASB
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

Jesus saves us from wrath because he saves us from our sin.

 

[redleghunter]

This would be the most loving path if we believe that God has wrath planned for every child we bring into the world......with their only chance being: to be born in the right country to the right parents that go the the right church with the correct doctrine and then remain there the rest of their lives.

Or we can listen to God’s loving command of:

Genesis 1: NASB

28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

 

[redleghunter]

I think that's hard to understand in the modern context, as close as we can come in the concept of reverence, without delving into what Rudolf Otto discussed in his work, The Idea of the Holy. The only aspect of culture that really preserves this sort of intuition now days is gothic or cosmic horror literature.

We truly do change but does a Holy God?

 

[redleghunter]

If one believes the child is damned from the moment of concept, as the poster I responded to, Why would they be damned? And would it not be truth that if they had not been born, they would not be the object of this wrath?

God tells us to procreate.

By worrying about what will become of babies is not trusting in God to do His will. You would in effect be saying your will be done.

We are told to be fruitful and multiply and to bring up our children in the ways of the Lord.

That’s what God says.

Satan wants us to have sex without consequences, abortion and infanticide.

The weakness of the flesh is always telling us “that’s too hard to do” when obeying God is concerned.

 

[redleghunter]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do. Furthermore, it says that Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so this is describing both past and present aspects of our salvation. We have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10), so our salvation is all encompassing.

Did you see the Scriptures I posted?

Yes sin is what condemns us. Which means God’s Wrath is still upon us.

 

[FireDragon76]

We truly do change but does a Holy God?

In relating to humans, God is not limited in that way. I'm just saying asking people to understand "fear" can be complicated in a world that is all too aware of abusive husbands or alcoholic parents. The "fear of the Lord" being spoken of is more like looking at the Grand Canyon or Niagra Falls or a big Gothic cathedral and being seized by the power of the experience.

 

[redleghunter]

We are to fear God's wrath. But many think this endless torment in the flames of the Lake of Fire (Which is a belief that is an attack upon the good character of our God). I believe the Bible teaches that there is a real literal hell (with literal flames), but I believe God is just and He will eventually destroy the wicked in the Lake of Fire after punishing them for their sins there. God is into fair justice.

Just a reminder the subject is the wrath of God. Discussions of universalism and annihilationism is only to be discussed in the Controversial theology forum.

That is why I kept this to the wrath of God.

 

[redleghunter]

I've said God saves us from ourselves, while others seem to imply God saves us from Him.

No it is the transgression of the law without the Blood of Christ.