What exactly did Jesus Save us from?....

[Calvin_1985]

W

Answer? The wrath of God.

The OP is a bit long but establishes the point we are saved from the wrath of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14: NASB

14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

The wrath of God is mentioned in the NT as the justice of God meted out to the unrepentant wicked.

In our post-modern society mentioning a wrathful God evokes thoughts of an angry deity who is a monster to mete out punishment taking pleasure in the afflictions of His own creation. But is this the Biblical portrayal of a Just and Loving God who is Righteous and will not let unrighteousness go unpunished?

First let's dispel this "monster God" of post-modernism.

The wrath of God is not a capricious, impulsive or arbitrary outburst of anger as some try to promote and thus God is not wrathful.

The wrath of God is a settled determined response of a Holy God against sin.

As Anglican Bishop J.I. Packer is quoted:

“God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil” (Knowing God, 151). ​

Which Packer is referring to the Apostle Paul to the Romans:

Romans 2: NASB

1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.​

Therefore, God's wrath is just.

As sinners needing Christ as Lord and Savior, God's wrath is to be feared. Feared because all are sinners (Romans 3:23), that we are separated from God needing to be at peace with Him (Romans 5:1) and God promises eternal punishment for those not in Christ (Matthew 25:46).

Therefore, we are to fear God's wrath.

The wrath of God is also consistent in both the OT and NT Scriptures. Some try to separate a God of the OT and a God of the NT. This was the argument put forth by Marcion and his views Marcionism were rejected by the early Church. However, when we examine the Scriptures we see consistency:

Jeremiah 30: NASB
23 Behold, the tempest of the LORD!
Wrath has gone forth,
A sweeping tempest;
It will burst on the head of the wicked.

24The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and until He has accomplished
The intent of His heart;
In the latter days you will understand this.
Nahum 1: NASB
2A jealous and avenging God is the LORD;
The LORD is avenging and wrathful.
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.

3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.​

Romans 1: NASB
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.​

Revelation 19: NASB
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”​

Therefore, God's wrath is consistent in the OT and NT.

As we can see laid out above is the Biblical truth on the wrath of God and the consequences. In the next thread we will speak of how "all have sinned" was remedied by God before the foundations of the earth. Concluding with the spoiler:

Romans 5: NASB
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

We are saved from a lot of things and for many more things.

 

[timothyu]

Since God's justice and rigtheousness demands that God's justice be satisfied by an atonement for sin,

Yet Jesus forgave the adulteress, and as atonement, simply said go, and sin no more.

 

[crossnote]

. Jesus saved us from the law that God requires to be upheld. we can not uphold it and no man will ever be able to there is only one who has Jesus Christ and that victory he gives to those who ask him by faith. faith in what that he is who he says he is. it's that easy. all glory be to God and none to man.

Stole my thunder lol...

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:4-6)

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
(Gal 2:19)

 

[Neogaia777]

And Sin, Hell, Death, and the Grave...

Does He use His wrath to discipline...? And if so, and if we are or if we do become truly obedient, (and eventually become loving and faithful and faith-filled, ect), was that due to "us", or "Him"...?

God Bless!

 

[JacksBratt]

Do you believe that the baby justly deserve wrath just because he was born?

No.

 

[JacksBratt]

What does that look like to you?

To me, it is total and eternal separation from God.

 

[JacksBratt]

Elect babies do not.

What's an "elect" baby?

 

[Tree of Life]

What's an "elect" baby?

A baby that God has sovereignly chosen for salvation.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sin, Death, and the Devil.

 

[Tree of Life]

Sin, Death, and the Devil.

Be a good Lutheran. Don't forget about the Law!

1 Corinthians 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

 

[FireDragon76]

Be a good Lutheran. Don't forget about the Law!

1 Corinthians 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Not quite.

We are saved from the Law's condemnation, but that condemnation is just and right. Contrary to what folks like N.T. Wright seem to think, Lutheranism is not exactly about "Law=Bad, Gospel=Good". But in a sinful world, it often works out that way because everybody is drawn to the opinio legis, using Law to justify themselves.

 

[bekkilyn]

What's an "elect" baby?

A baby that wins the electoral vote.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not quite.

We are saved from the Law's condemnation, but that condemnation is just and right. Contrary to what folks like N.T. Wright seem to think, Lutheranism is not exactly about "Law=Bad, Gospel=Good". But in a sinful world, it often works out that way because everybody is drawn to the opinio legis, using Law to justify themselves.

I totally agree with you. The law is good but we, as sinners, are condemned by it. But the gospel is that we are saved from the condemnation of the law. But this means that we are saved from God's wrath because it's God's law that we've broken and God's curse that we've incurred. That's what I was trying to point out.

 

[eleos1954]

Answer? The wrath of God.

The OP is a bit long but establishes the point we are saved from the wrath of God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14: NASB

14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

The wrath of God is mentioned in the NT as the justice of God meted out to the unrepentant wicked.

In our post-modern society mentioning a wrathful God evokes thoughts of an angry deity who is a monster to mete out punishment taking pleasure in the afflictions of His own creation. But is this the Biblical portrayal of a Just and Loving God who is Righteous and will not let unrighteousness go unpunished?

First let's dispel this "monster God" of post-modernism.

The wrath of God is not a capricious, impulsive or arbitrary outburst of anger as some try to promote and thus God is not wrathful.

The wrath of God is a settled determined response of a Holy God against sin.

As Anglican Bishop J.I. Packer is quoted:

“God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil” (Knowing God, 151). ​

Which Packer is referring to the Apostle Paul to the Romans:

Romans 2: NASB

1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.​

Therefore, God's wrath is just.

As sinners needing Christ as Lord and Savior, God's wrath is to be feared. Feared because all are sinners (Romans 3:23), that we are separated from God needing to be at peace with Him (Romans 5:1) and God promises eternal punishment for those not in Christ (Matthew 25:46).

Therefore, we are to fear God's wrath.

The wrath of God is also consistent in both the OT and NT Scriptures. Some try to separate a God of the OT and a God of the NT. This was the argument put forth by Marcion and his views Marcionism were rejected by the early Church. However, when we examine the Scriptures we see consistency:

Jeremiah 30: NASB
23 Behold, the tempest of the LORD!
Wrath has gone forth,
A sweeping tempest;
It will burst on the head of the wicked.

24The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and until He has accomplished
The intent of His heart;
In the latter days you will understand this.
Nahum 1: NASB
2A jealous and avenging God is the LORD;
The LORD is avenging and wrathful.
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.

3The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.​

Romans 1: NASB
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.​

Revelation 19: NASB
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”​

Therefore, God's wrath is consistent in the OT and NT.

As we can see laid out above is the Biblical truth on the wrath of God and the consequences. In the next thread we will speak of how "all have sinned" was remedied by God before the foundations of the earth. Concluding with the spoiler:

Romans 5: NASB
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

We aren't to fear (be afraid) of God .... it's about love. God is love.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Those in Christ will experience His love and receive eternal life (saved) ... those not ... will experience His wrath ... be destroyed and not receive eternal life (lost).

 

[FireDragon76]

I totally agree with you. The law is good but we, as sinners, are condemned by it. But the gospel is that we are saved from the condemnation of the law. But this means that we are saved from God's wrath because it's God's law that we've broken and God's curse that we've incurred. That's what I was trying to point out.

I think that's focusing too much on a strictly forensic view of salvation, even if there is an element of truth in it. Sin, Death, and the Devil is exactly the sort of language my pastor uses.

 

[Tree of Life]

I think that's focusing too much on a strictly forensic view of salvation, even if there is an element of truth in it (God's wrath). Sin, Death, and the Devil is exactly the sort of language my pastor uses.

I think that if you remove the forensic element, "Sin, Death, and the Devil" doesn't make much sense.

We've sinned by breaking God's law.
We are subject to death because of God's curse.
The devil accuses us because of our sin and demands that God exact his justice.

When Jesus takes the punishment for our sins and gives us his righteousness (all forensic), then we are justified in the sight of the law, we are free from God's curse, and we are not liable to the accusations of the devil.

Remove the forensic piece and what do you have left?

 

[FireDragon76]

I think that if you remove the forensic element, "Sin, Death, and the Devil" doesn't make much sense.

We've sinned by breaking God's law.
We are subject to death because of God's curse.
The devil accuses us because of our sin and demands that God exact his justice.

When Jesus takes the punishment for our sins and gives us his righteousness (all forensic), then we are justified in the sight of the law, we are free from God's curse, and we are not liable to the accusations of the devil.

Remove the forensic piece and what do you have left?

Even Luther himself did not think of it in such starkly forensic terms. The Devil was a very real presence in his life, and sin was very much more than just breaking rules, but tied to all aspects of human finitude. Some people talk about a sensus divinitatis, well Luther had a sense of evil and depravity in the same way.

 

[FireDragon76]

As Lutherans we really do not believe God is an angry God. We believe God is a loving God and that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. We reject the notion of Christ's atonement being limited in any way. That is why I believe, I can't agree with your paradigm of characterizing God as merely angry with sinners. God's wrath is merely an aspect of God's love when not seen rightly through Christ.

(BTW, the sermon is fictitious but almost all of it is based on things Luther actually wrote or said).

 

[Tree of Life]

Even Luther himself did not think of it in such starkly forensic terms. The Devil was a very real presence in his life, and sin was very much more than just breaking rules, but tied to all aspects of human finitude. Some people talk about a sensus divinitatis, well Luther had a sense of evil and depravity in the same way.

“When the devil accuses us and says, ‘You are a sinner and therefore damned,’ we should answer, ‘Because you say I am a sinner, I will be righteous and saved.’ ‘No,’ says the devil, ‘you will be damned.’ And I reply, ‘No, for I fly to Christ, who gave himself for my sins. Satan, you will not prevail against me when you try to terrify me by setting forth the greatness of my sins and try to bring me into heaviness, distrust, despair, hatred, contempt and blasphemy against God. On the contrary, when you say I am a sinner, you give me armor and weapons against yourself, so that with your own sword I may cut your throat and tread you under my feet, for Christ died for sinners. . . . As often as you object that I am a sinner, so often you remind me of the benefit of Christ my Redeemer, on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins. So when you say I am a sinner, you do not terrify me but comfort me immeasurably.'”

 

[Neogaia777]

We aren't to fear (be afraid) of God .... it's about love. God is love.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Those in Christ will experience His love and receive eternal life (saved) ... those not ... will experience His wrath ... be destroyed and not receive eternal life (lost).

The last part...? "Annihilated"...? Or not...?

God Bless!