Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

[ewq1938]

Verse 5 says the speaker is the one sitting on the throne. Throughout Revelation that is the Father, not the Son.

Christ sits on the same throne with his Father:

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who is it that says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"? Jesus said the exact word for word statement in Rev_1:8 where he also claimed to be the Almighty!

Who is it that also says, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son"? Yes, Jesus says he will be our God!

He also said, "I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely". Guess who said that before?

Joh 4:5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
Joh 4:6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
Joh 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.


"who it is that saith it to thee". Do you know who said it? God the Son, Jesus was saying it to this woman.


Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Jesus says he gives of this living water! Not his Father but Jesus himself. In verse 4:10 Jesus says the living water is a gift from God, a clear reference that Jesus is referring to himself as God and as the one who gives the living water.


Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Almighty, the Lord, the one who gives the living water, the one who is God along with his Father.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Here the one who will give the water of life is called God.

Joh_4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Here Jesus says he will give the water of life.


Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jesus says, "I will be his God"

 

[gadar perets]

Switching the order of the words does not change the meaning of the words. el gibbor and gibbor el still translates to "mighty God" same as it does here:

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Ezekiel 32:21 uses the same phrase in the plural form - eli giborim. Yet, it was translated as "The strong among the mighty" rather than "the mighty Gods". Why is that?

"El" can either mean "God". There is only one true God, Father YHWH (John 17:3). All others are lesser elohim or lesser els.

 

[ewq1938]

Ezekiel 32:21 uses the same phrase in the plural form - eli giborim. Yet, it was translated as "The strong among the mighty" rather than "the mighty Gods". Why is that?

"El" can either mean "God". There is only one true God, Father YHWH (John 17:3). All others are lesser elohim or lesser els.

The Father being the only true God does not exclude God the son as also being the one true God since "God" is not limited in how many persons belong to the title of God.

 

[gadar perets]

Christ sits on the same throne with his Father:

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

When a verse speaks of only one person sitting on the throne, it is the Father.

Rev_4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev_4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev_4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev_4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev_4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev_4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev_4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev_5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev_5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev_5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev_5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev_19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who is it that says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"? Jesus said the exact word for word statement in Rev_1:8 where he also claimed to be the Almighty!

It is the Father who is speaking in Rev 1:8. Do not be deceived by the red letters. Rev 1:4 is a greeting from the Father and verse 5 is a greeting from the Son. It is the being in verse 4 that is “which is, and which was, and which is to come” (also Rev 4:8) .

Who is it that also says, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son"?

Father YHWH

He also said, "I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely". Guess who said that before?

Joh 4:5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
Joh 4:6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
Joh 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.


"who it is that saith it to thee". Do you know who said it? God the Son, Jesus was saying it to this woman.


Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


Jesus says he gives of this living water! Not his Father but Jesus himself. In verse 4:10 Jesus says the living water is a gift from God, a clear reference that Jesus is referring to himself as God and as the one who gives the living water.


Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

What is the living water? The Holy Spirit.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Yeshua was not yet glorified.)​

Where does the Holy Spirit come from? Father YHWH

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.​

Here the one who will give the water of life is called God.

Joh_4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Here Jesus says he will give the water of life.

The water of life (the Holy Spirit) comes from the Father through the Son.

 

[gadar perets]

The Father being the only true God does not exclude God the son as also being the one true God since "God" is not limited in how many persons belong to the title of God.

Yeshua excluded himself in John 17:3. You are contradicting him.

 

[ewq1938]

Yeshua excluded himself in John 17:3. You are contradicting him.

No, he was simply honoring his Father. Elsewhere he claimed to be God, and others knew he was God, and even his Father called him God. Israel's rock was God in the OT and NT scripture states Jesus was that rock so there's much scripture to refute your Unitarian beliefs.

 

[gadar perets]

No, he was simply honoring his Father. Elsewhere he claimed to be God, and others knew he was God, and even his Father called him God. Israel's rock was God in the OT and NT scripture states Jesus was that rock so there's much scripture to refute your Unitarian beliefs.

You keep talking about there being so much Scripture saying the Son is "God", but the only one you cited was Rev 21:7 which are the words of his Father. Where did the Son claim to be God? Where did others know he was God?

1 Corinthians 10:4 must be understood with Exodus 17:6 in mind; "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel." 1 Cor. 10:4 is figuratively making reference to Exodus 17:6 which is a shadow of Messiah. To "smite the rock" is to kill the Messiah. The rock could not yield water until it was smitten. Similarly, Messiah Yeshua could not give forth "rivers of living water" until he was put to death and then resurrected unto eternal life (glorified). John 7:39 shows this "living water" to be the Holy Spirit. Yeshua was not physically present with them in the wilderness. Spiritually or figuratively speaking he was. That is why the verse says "spiritual drink" and "spiritual Rock." Even if one were to believe Yeshua physically followed Israel, that would not prove he was YHWH since YHWH was not personally leading or following Israel in the wilderness. Scriptures reveal that the Angel of YHWH, YHWH's representative, followed them (Exodus 14:19).

Israel's Rock and Israel's God is YHWH (2 Samuel 22:32, 47; Psalms 18:2,31,46; Psalms 94:22). YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalms 2:7).

 

[Barney2.0]

The trinity does declare the three to be the one God, but it also declares the three to be separate beings.

View attachment 255577

If you understand what person and nature mean, person is who what is, and nature is what one is in being. There are three what’s and individuals with one being and in this case is One God.

 

[ewq1938]

You keep talking about there being so much Scripture saying the Son is "God", but the only one you cited was Rev 21:7 which are the words of his Father. Where did the Son claim to be God? Where did others know he was God?

It's been presented multiple times by multiple people in this 16 page long thread. The matter has been proven. Not being accepted is not the same as not being proven.

 

[gadar perets]

If you understand what person and nature mean, person is who what is, and nature is what one is in being. There are three what’s and individuals with one being and in this case is One God.

That is philosophy, not Scripture.

 

[Barney2.0]

That is philosophy, not Scripture.

Your using philosophy to try to disprove the trinity, so naturally we’re going to defend it using philosophy.

 

[gadar perets]

Your using philosophy to try to disprove the trinity, so naturally we’re going to defend it using philosophy.

By "philosophy" I meant straying from Scripture and relying on concepts foreign to Scripture. Please show me where I used such philosophy. BTW, interpreting Scripture using Scripture is not philosophy. My POV may be foreign to you, but it is not foreign to Scripture.

 

[Barney2.0]

By "philosophy" I meant straying from Scripture and relying on concepts foreign to Scripture. Please show me where I used such philosophy. BTW, interpreting Scripture using Scripture is not philosophy. My POV may be foreign to you, but it is not foreign to Scripture.

In your former post you said this:

“The trinity does declare the three to be the one God, but it also declares the three to be separate beings.”

 

[gadar perets]

In your former post you said this:

“The trinity does declare the three to be the one God, but it also declares the three to be separate beings.”

Yes, I did, but I was declaring what the trinity doctrine says, not what I believe. If you want to knit pick over the word "being" vs. "person", you don't have a case. God exists. Therefore, He is a being. In fact, the Septuagint calls Him "the Being" rather than "the I AM". A "person" is a human being. YHWH is a spirit being or heavenly being.

 

[Barney2.0]

Yes, I did, but I was declaring what the trinity doctrine says, not what I believe. If you want to knit pick over the word "being" vs. "person", you don't have a case. God exists. Therefore, He is a being. In fact, the Septuagint calls Him "the Being" rather than "the I AM". A "person" is a human being. YHWH is a spirit being or heavenly being.

Person is a philosophical term to designate the identity of every being, every being has a person, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be one person especially if we’re talking about an immaterial being like God. Person doesn’t mean human being or material thing. Likewise a being like Satan is also considered a person despite being a spirit being. I AM and The Being are both different ways of translating the Hebrew name God revealed to Moses

 

[Barney2.0]

I never said we become God.


You accept how Scripture was translated into English and how deceived churches interpret it. The Apostle's interpretation is far different.


Next you will be telling me that watermelons are really blue inside, but turn red when you cut them exposing the interior to air.


Jews talk to God. Catholics talk to whichever saint they are standing before which is why they pray the "Hail Mary" while standing/kneeling before a statue of Mary. Or why they pray for safe travels to the dumb statue sitting on their car's dashboard.


The Jews in Paul's day kept the law to be saved and be made righteous. I do neither.

There are far more NT laws than just two. In fact, there are far more NT laws than OT laws.

The laws of Romans 8:2 are principles, not the Mosaic Law; the principle of sin bringing forth death and the principle of the indwelling Spirit bringing forth life.

We died to the condemnation of the Mosaic Law, not the Law itself. That is why even you believe we are to keep the two greatest OT commandments as well as at least nine of the Ten.


The 7th day was the Sabbath long before the written law existed.


Swine's flesh was not created as food. Even the medical community recommends not eating swine's flesh. It is toxic meat loaded with harmful parasites, not to mention they defile people who eat it. YHWH made Gentile believers clean, not unclean animal flesh.

---SE---

You implied that when you said God imports a part of his divine nature in us.

You do know the the Bible has only been available in English for the past five hundred years rights? The Church has been interpreting scripture since it was not yet translated into any other languages except Greek.

I don’t know what watermelons have to do with the Holy Eucharist. And Christ’s literal command to eat his flesh and drunk his blood.

Ever heard of the intercession of the Tzadik in Judaism:

Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf?

What’s wrong with asking a Saint to pray for you and using a statue or image to represent him, veneration is not worship.

The two New Testament laws engulf all the Ten Commandments with exception to the Sabbath. The law of the spirit is a law not a principle, it says the word law quite clearly. Romans 8:3-4 says that Jesus Christ did what the law could not. If we died to the condemnations of the Mosaic law then we’re freed from it and thus no longer need to uphold it with perfection under the threat of being condemned.

I never said that the Sabbath didn’t exist before the written law, I said it was never part of the natural law.

It really depends on what the Pork has been fed on before being slaughtered. Pork has many benefits and is a source of thiamine, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin B6, niacin, phosphorus, and iron.

 

[gadar perets]

Person is a philosophical term to designate the identity of every being, every being has a person, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be one person especially if we’re talking about an immaterial being like God. Person doesn’t mean human being or material thing. Likewise a being like Satan is also considered a person despite being a spirit being. I AM and The Being are both different ways of translating the Hebrew name God revealed to Moses

You are correct that "person" is a "philosophical" term. Every human being is one person. Yet, you want immaterial beings to be multiple persons. Thus, your philosophy distorts your doctrine. Angels can manifest as humans, but that doesn't mean they are multiple persons. They are simply angels that appeared as being human to men. Yeshua is a human being that was given a glorified body. YHWH is a spirit being and NEVER appeared as a human and NEVER was a human.

You want the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be three persons, but you reject the natural conclusion that they are three Gods. If we consider the "two" angels that met with Abraham as two "persons", can we also say they are one angel? No. Yet, you want the Father and Son to be two persons, but one God. The same concept holds true for all other "persons" that exist. They are NEVER multiple persons, but your philosophy says that does not hold true for God.

 

[gadar perets]

You implied that when you said God imports a part of his divine nature in us.

Partaking of the divine nature does not mean we become God. I can partake of a cake without becoming a cake. I can partake of a turkey without becoming a turkey. I can partake of a pig by having porcine based medicine injected into me, but that doesn't make me a pig. YHWH's indwelling Holy Spirit does not make us God.

You do know the the Bible has only been available in English for the past five hundred years rights? The Church has been interpreting scripture since it was not yet translated into any other languages except Greek.

Yes, I know. And it is the church's erroneous interpretations that have led to the erroneous translations we have today.

I don’t know what watermelons have to do with the Holy Eucharist. And Christ’s literal command to eat his flesh and drunk his blood.

I am not sure of how you view transubstantiation, but I have been told the bread and cup turn into Yeshua's flesh and blood after it enters the body. Of course, that can't be proven unless we have someone cut open to find out.

Ever heard of the intercession of the Tzadik in Judaism:

Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf?

What’s wrong with asking a Saint to pray for you and using a statue or image to represent him, veneration is not worship.

The Jews have many unscriptural traditions. Yeshua even rebuked them for certain ones they hold. Dead men know nothing. They cannot hear us or intercede on our behalf. Yeshua can and does because he is alive. Why would anyone want to pray to a saint for something when we can ask Yeshua to intercede instead? Are dead saints more powerful than Yeshua?

The two New Testament laws engulf all the Ten Commandments with exception to the Sabbath.

Why is the Sabbath excluded? In what verse? When we choose to not cause our neighbor to work on the 7th day, we show our love for him/her and for YHWH.

The law of the spirit is a law not a principle, it says the word law quite clearly.

Strong's lexicon says of "nomos", "or figuratively (a principle):"

Romans 8:3-4 says that Jesus Christ did what the law could not. If we died to the condemnations of the Mosaic law then we’re freed from it and thus no longer need to uphold it with perfection under the threat of being condemned.

We are freed from the condemnation because our sins were forgiven. We are not free from the laws themselves which is why most Christians continue to try to obey the other nine of the Ten Commandments.

I never said that the Sabbath didn’t exist before the written law, I said it was never part of the natural law.

Another philosophical term? What is natural law as defined in Scripture? Are the other nine commandments part of the natural law?

It really depends on what the Pork has been fed on before being slaughtered. Pork has many benefits and is a source of thiamine, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin B6, niacin, phosphorus, and iron.

Human feces is a source of phosphorous, potassium, calcium, magnesium, and a host of other elements. That does not mean we can eat it. There is nothing a pig could eat that would make it become acceptable as food in YHWH's sight. He created it to be unclean and it will always be so.

 

[Barney2.0]

You are correct that "person" is a "philosophical" term. Every human being is one person. Yet, you want immaterial beings to be multiple persons. Thus, your philosophy distorts your doctrine. Angels can manifest as humans, but that doesn't mean they are multiple persons. They are simply angels that appeared as being human to men. Yeshua is a human being that was given a glorified body. YHWH is a spirit being and NEVER appeared as a human and NEVER was a human.

You want the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be three persons, but you reject the natural conclusion that they are three Gods. If we consider the "two" angels that met with Abraham as two "persons", can we also say they are one angel? No. Yet, you want the Father and Son to be two persons, but one God. The same concept holds true for all other "persons" that exist. They are NEVER multiple persons, but your philosophy says that does not hold true for God.

I said immaterial beings do not necessarily have to be one person. God did appear as an angelic being to Jacob. If the two angels had one being they would be one angel in being and two in person. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share the same divine being and will which rejects any possibility of polytheism and having three gods. We know God is one God and that he revealed himself as three persons in the New Testament, thus he is one in being and three in person. A spirit being can naturally unite itself to flesh as we see in the divine Word or Logos.

 

[ewq1938]

You want the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be three persons, but you reject the natural conclusion that they are three Gods.

How many brides does Christ have? One or many? The bride of Christ is one bride but consists of a huge number of people, male and female. The Trinity being 3 does not equal 3 Gods anymore than the bride is multiple brides.