"Grace alone " is a big excuse for lazy Christians

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Aldebaran

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dqhall

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I observed that many Christians are very lazy nowadays.

They prefer doing nothing for Jesus and said that "Grace alone " "we are not saved by Work ".

Then everyone is in idol mode to wait to go to Heaven.

Laziness is a big sin.
Luke 9:62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for God’s Kingdom.” (WEB) Plowing a field without looking back is not laziness.

Martha was working hard and complained about her sister Mary not working. Mary was sitting listening to Jesus' teaching. Jesus told Martha that Mary had chosen the better activity. Luke 10:38-42

Visiting sick and imprisoned people and sharing good news with them does not bring in a paycheck, but there may be some glory, if it is done right.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Grace is "training wheels" for holiness.

That's one of the most terrifying things I think I've read in a while. Grace is not "training wheels", grace is everything. "But by the grace of God I am what I am."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Sabertooth

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That's one of the most terrifying things I think I've read in a while.
Do you know the purpose of "training wheels?" They keep you from falling when, without them, you would.

Sure, grace has other functions, but that is a big one...
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you know the purpose of "training wheels?" They keep you from falling when, without them, you would.

And they are a temporary solution, that one eventually overcomes the need for. Grace isn't just there to cushion our fall, grace is the oxygen in the air without which we would suffocate and die.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aldebaran

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Do you know the purpose of "training wheels?" They keep you from falling when, without them, you would.

Sure, grace has other functions, but that is a big one...

It makes me nervous when people think they can take off those training wheels and go it on their own, as if they only need Jesus at the beginning until they can follow all the commandments on their own and don't need Him anymore because they've managed to reach "perfection" without Him.
 
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Sabertooth

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And they are a temporary solution, that one eventually overcomes the need for.
When we get to Heaven, we won't need them/it (at least, not in that capacity).
 
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timothyu

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Grace isn't just there to cushion our fall, grace is the oxygen in the air without which we would suffocate and die.
Grace gave us the option of the Kingdom to the world we have made in our image. The choice is still ours as to which set of opposing ideals we will follow
 
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Strong in Him

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I am not saying that a genuine born again believer (who has God living in them) will not have a noticeable change or difference in their life.

I know you're not.

But again, while we may have passed from life unto death, our free will is not taken away and there are still warnings against how sin can destroy a believer's soul in the afterlife.

What??
Are you saying that a believer can go to heaven and still be affected by sin? Impossible.

Yes, you're right; our free will is not taken away. We can, and still, do sin through negligence, weakness or our own deliberate fault.
But I don't believe that a Christian who is IN Christ, abiding and walking in him, will deliberately plan ways to sin and rebel against God.

But if things are as you say, then we not expect to find verses such as these:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.​

A number of those are about believers persevering and holding firm to the faith through times of persecution - i.e don't renounce your faith in hard times, don't deny Christ and try to save your life.

Anyways, the problem with your belief here is that you are saying that we are not saved by works (after being saved by God's grace),

We aren't.
We are saved from eternal death - which is the result of sin; separation from God - and can have eternal life through Jesus. Adam brought sin and death into the world; Jesus is the second Adam who has bought life and peace with God, Romans 5:12-21.
If someone accepts that Jesus died for them, repents and receives him as their Saviour, they are saved from eternal death; saved by HIS work on the cross, Romans 5:1, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. If they died soon after accepting Christ and being born again, they would be reconciled with God, saved from eternal death and have eternal life.
Anyone who doesn't die immediately after receiving Jesus will want to spend the rest of their time on this earth serving him. We will have struggles against sin, the world and the devil; we may give in, be overwhelmed, start to doubt and so on. But while we may be separated from God for a while, he doesn't give up on us; Romans 8:38-39 says that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Jesus also said that no one can snatch us from his Father's hands, John 10:29 - we can walk away from his Father's hands, but not be snatched.

We didn't have to DO anything to be created by God, we didn't have to DO anything to be loved by God, Romans 5:8; we don't need to DO anything to be saved by God - except to accept what Christ has already done.

and yet God does the work through us in the sense that you cannot help it.

No, we CAN help it; we can give ourselves to God, keep on being filled with his Spirit and ASK him to work through us. In other words, we can be willing to speak to a complete stranger, but God will direct the conversation - even onto matters of faith, if we let him.

So works are needed as a part of salvation,

JESUS' finished work on the cross has achieved our salvation - his is the only work that matters or means anything.
OUR works are like filthy rags - useless without Christ.

You can sit back and not worry about obeying, and make no effort and hope that God will do the work one day through you.

That's not how it is.
We serve and obey God, but sit back and not worry about "results", or that everything depends on us.
It's not about hoping that God will work through us, but trusting that he will. And that doesn't mean that God forces our arms and legs to go where we don't want to go or do what we don't want to do. He doesn't force us to do anything - we love and serve him because he loved us and gave himself for us.
 
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ViaCrucis

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When we get to Heaven, we won't need them/it (at least, not in that capacity).

If all you meant was that grace is necessary in this life--because we are mortal sinners without any holiness and righteousness to call our own--but that we will be made holy and righteous in that beatific life to come. Then I apologize for my initial horror. But I have encountered plenty who seem to think that grace, that the cross of Jesus Christ, etc are merely a kind of "stepping stone" toward some kind of moral or "spiritual" life that we can attain here, that Christians can attain their own holiness, their own righteousness, and thus be made perfect by their own obedience to God's commandments, or by living a "moral" life. Such thinking is horrific because it amounts to a firm denial of the Gospel, and is precisely why St. Paul begins the third chapter to the Galatians saying, "O foolish Galatians, who has deceived you?!"

The Christian life is not a life of glory, but a life of the cross.
The Christian life is not a life of being "moral", but a life of faith in repentance.

The life of good works we are called to live in isn't glory, it isn't about our moral improvement, or some kind of righteousness for ourselves; but is the life of faith in the trenches of this world, with a cross on our back, in service and love for our neighbor. These good works do not make us holy, or righteous, or moral, or "good"; they are works done in love out of a heart of gratitude to God who saves us and who gives us Jesus Christ in whom we have life and peace with God, and the comfort and grace of our forgiveness even as sinful wretches here and now.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Grace gave us the option of the Kingdom to the world we have made in our image. The choice is still ours as to which set of opposing ideals we will follow

Frequently you get very close to understanding what the kingdom is and means, but it seems as soon as you do you then retreat back into the cave of the Opinio Legis, denying the power and meaning of the kingdom.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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timothyu

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Frequently you get very close to understanding what the kingdom is and means, but it seems as soon as you do you then retreat back into the cave of the Opinio Legis, denying the power and meaning of the kingdom.
Think so? lol
 
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ViaCrucis

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Think so? lol

The kingdom is about the condescension of God into the world who suffers cross and humiliation, and who takes hold of us sinners in grace. The kingdom does not look like the kingdoms of this world, because God's kingdom looks like a crucified carpenter from Nazareth crying, "Forgive them, Father, for they don't know what they are doing."

For the least is greatest.
The last is first.
Blessed are the poor.
Blessed are those who hunger.
For theirs is the kingdom.

God is for the small, the weak, the least. For God has chosen the foolish and weak things of the world to confound the wise and confuse the strong. But for us who are being saved, Jesus Christ the wisdom and power of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BNR32FAN

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Seems like there are many who are trying by works.

Very rarely do i see or hear people tell that eternal life is by believing that Jesus is the promise Messiah from Old Testament prophecies and trust in Jesus for the gift of His eternal life.

The object of a persons faith should only be Jesus, As he is the only eternal life giver. baptism can not give a person eternal life, joining a church can not, confessing sins can not, circumcision can not, repenting of sins can not, Bible knowledge can not, so on and so on

I think a majority of people who believe works are necessary for salvation are just misunderstood and misrepresented by those who advocate eternal security. From what I’ve seen those who advocate conditional salvation usually tend to have a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures, early church writings, and the Greek & Hebrew languages. While those who advocate eternal security disregard scriptures, early church writings, and the Greek & Hebrew languages.
 
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timothyu

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The kingdom does not look like the kingdoms of this world, because God's kingdom looks like a crucified carpenter from Nazareth crying, "Forgive them, Father, for they don't know what they are doing."

In a round about way.

The King came to tell us the good news about the Kingdom, not to promote Himself. He had a mission to accomplish and did so. He told His followers to spread the Gospel of the Kingdom (that being what He taught) . We don't just spread the news of the messenger, but of His message.

Luke 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

As you see, the main character is still the Kingdom. Jesus taught us to reject the ways of man for the ways of the Kingdom. Believing in Him is believing in what He taught, the Gospel of the Kingdom. Remember that Jesus followed the will of both the Father and the Kingdom.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The Bible uses both fear and love as incentive to bringing people to repentance.
However, God during this time period is using kindness to bring people to repentance, Romans Chapter 2.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Paul taught that we should judge members in the church and I’ve always viewed that as a really tough situation. He even went so far as to have a man excommunicated from the church for sleeping with his father’s wife. He did later tell the church to go to the man and invite him back but in my opinion this could be a really delicate situation because the person could be angry or even embarrassed and not want to come back. I think if my church had done this to me when I backslid as a new believer I probably wouldn’t have returned for fear of being judged.
My daughter received Christ at the age of 9, went through the church Sunday school, then went away from it to another church when she was about 16. Then circumstances happened which stopped her going to church. She is now 27. I asked her a couple of years ago whether she wanted to go back to a church, and she said, "No. I don't want people telling me how to live."
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10?
This is Sanctification - abiding in Christ as a converted believer. Conversion grafts the person into the vine, sanctification keeps him grafted in. We conduct ourselves according to the fruit of the Spirit. This is the way that Christ commanded us to live. If we are walking in the spirit, showing the fruit of the Spirit, then we are subject to no set of commandments, rules, or laws that are imposed on us. Through the fruit of the Spirit we are living the law out of our new hearts and enlivened spirit.
 
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timothyu

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"No. I don't want people telling me how to live."
There is a difference between telling people how to live and instead giving them a choice. Few too many churches fail to point out that division is not between man, but between the world man has made in our image and the Kingdom. God gives a choice and expects us to use our intelligence as to which has the better system.
 
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