Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

Paidiske

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First people must understand the fact that they are sinners before they can understand God's love and grace. That is why God gave the law before he sent the Savior into the world. The reason so much evangelism is ineffective is that too many try to tell others about God's love and grace without first telling them that they are sinners and need God's grace. We must tell them the bad news about their sinfulness before they will receive the good news of salvation.

You know, I don't find that I need to convince people about sin. People know it instinctively. They know the brokenness of their lives, their relationships. They know their own wounds. I don't need to spend time hammering that home; they get it.

The good news that this need not be our defining reality is good news indeed!
 
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Silverback

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Now before you jump onboard and say 'Of course its ethical' consider the current case that has dominated Australian media and Australian sport in particular.

Israel Folau is one of Australia's (if not the world's) greatest Rugby Union players. He is a match winner. He is talented beyond belief and has won an array of national and international sporting awards. He is currently in the Australian Rugby Union team called 'The Wallabies'.

Despite Israel's strong physical appearance, he is a highly personable, gentle and kind individual. He is extremely likeable. Israel is a Christian of the evangelistic ilk.

Rugby Union has as a very strong code of conduct. You will rarely see referee abuse from players - it prides itself on respect for all players, the referees and supporters. International players have particular responsibilities as so many people, particularly juniors, see them as role models. This added responsibility to acknowledge that whats said publicly must accord with the code of conduct, whether its said on the field or off it, is reinforced in player contracts.

Israel, despite being a very nice person has repeatedly made the following types of statements:
That those that are gay, unmarried people having sexual relationships, those that drink to excess....[the list goes on] are sinful and all going to hell.

Now Israel, of course, is making biblical references inline with his christian beliefs. He's not saying terrible things per se....HOWEVER - it has clearly been a breach of his contract and despite just recently signing a four year contract and despite being Australia's shining star - he has been sacked.

Israel Folau to be sacked by Rugby Australia over homophobic comments

Australian rugby's position is that it goes to great lengths to be inclusive. It is not concerned with who you choose to love, or that your mother is a single mother, or your father is in some sort of defacto relationship. It does not want those representing the sporting code to alter that perception with statements indicating that those following the sport are lesser individuals and are in some way bad for their sexual choices or marital status.

So the debate - religious freedom of speech versus the right of a sporting to code to insist its code of conduct is followed.

This has cost Israel Millions of dollars. He has lost sponsorship worth millions and his International rugby career is ended unless he can change his public statements.

It seems to me he should have not signed a contract that conflicted with his morals, and principles.

I think the response to his views were a little over the top. These types of things have happened in the US as well, albeit not in professional sports, not that I can think of anyway.

The reverse happens as well, teachers in parochial schools have been terminated if found living together outside of marriage, or, single and pregnant.

What really gets people in the U.S. Is derogatory post about there employer on Facebook...Fired!
 
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Zoii

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It seems to me he should have not signed a contract that conflicted with his morals, and principles.

I think the response to his views were a little over the top. These types of things have happened in the US as well, albeit not in professional sports, not that I can think of anyway.

The reverse happens as well, teachers in parochial schools have been terminated if found living together outside of marriage, or, single and pregnant.

What really gets people in the U.S. Is derogatory post about there employer on Facebook...Fired!
I've said this a few times already, but its just sad this lovely person and a great player of the game, was so poorly counselled by his church. He had a wonderful platform to sell positive messages reflecting his Christian beliefs, He could role model for the younger generation.

Instead, he chose OT fire and brimstone 'you will all burn in hell' statements repeatedly. As a result, far from encouraging people towards Christianity, they felt that they were rejected by the religion, and as he was a high profile representative of Rugby Union, it reflected on the game.
 
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Zoii

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I thought it might be worth attaching relevant clauses from the player code of conduct, which every single player receives starting at a junior level. Of course, players at the elite level have additional expectations expressed in their contract.

1.3 Treat everyone equally, fairly and with dignity regardless of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, cultural or religious background, age or disability. Any form of bullying, harassment or discrimination has no place in Rugby.
file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/RugbyAUCodeofConduct.pdf

1.6 Do not make any public comment that is critical of the performance of a match official, player, team official, coach or employee/officer/volunteer of any club or a Union; or on any matter that is, or is likely to be, the subject of an investigation or disciplinary process; or otherwise, make any public comment that would likely be detrimental to the best interests, image and welfare of the Game, a team, a club, a competition or Union.

1.7 Use Social Media appropriately. By all means, share your positive experiences of Rugby but do not use Social Media as a means to breach any of the expectations and requirements of you as a player contained in this Code or in any Union, club or competition rules and regulations.

1.8 Do not otherwise act in a way that may adversely affect or reflect on, or bring you, your team, club, Rugby Body or Rugby into disrepute or discredit. If you commit a criminal offence, this is likely to adversely reflect on you and your team, club, Rugby Body and Rugby.
 
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Silverback

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I've said this a few times already, but its just sad this lovely person and a great player of the game, was so poorly counselled by his church. He had a wonderful platform to sell positive messages reflecting his Christian beliefs, He could role model for the younger generation.

Instead, he chose OT fire and brimstone 'you will all burn in hell' statements repeatedly. As a result, far from encouraging people towards Christianity, they felt that they were rejected by the religion, and as he was a high profile representative of Rugby Union, it reflected on the game.

I don't know about Australian professional sports, but if it was the US, I think he could get back in after a few years...maybe
 
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Occams Barber

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While there are concerns about the way Folau has represented himself and Rugby Australia, Christians also need to be aware that his comments reflect badly on the image of Christianity.

Australia is not a particularly Christian country. At the last count, in 2016, Christians were 52% of the population and dropping. Few Christians actually attend church beyond the wedding/funeral basics. There are more people here who identify as having no religion than there are Catholics. Proselytising or wearing religion on your sleeve is seen as strange behaviour. ‘Evangelical’ type Christians are regarded with some suspicion as people who want to impose their Bible based view of life on the rest of us.

We’ve had the shock revelations of child abuse at the hands of Christians and we’ve seen some Christian groups fight tooth and nail to stop marriage equality – something which the vast majority of Australians support.

Given this background, Folau’s comments will be seen by many Australians as another example of the self-righteous, finger-pointing which seems to be a feature of some parts of Christianity.

Rightly or wrongly, Folau’s outbursts will help to confirm a growing impression that Christianity is becoming increasingly irrelevant to Australian society.
OB
 
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ralfyman

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I suppose the question is whether or not it is legal, as the situation does involve business and what business owners want. From there, one will probably have to see if any AU laws were violated. Otherwise, the player is free to look for and join a franchise that allows such statements.
 
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Occams Barber

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I suppose the question is whether or not it is legal, as the situation does involve business and what business owners want. From there, one will probably have to see if any AU laws were violated. Otherwise, the player is free to look for and join a franchise that allows such statements.

Folau hasn't broken any Australian law. He has, several times, violated the Rugby Australia Code of Conduct which forms part of his contract. The contract does not prevent him from being a Christian. It does require him to refrain from insulting people.

A Rugby Australia ban stops him from joining any Rugby Australia teams. The only other Rugby league has similar standards to Rugby Australia and has indicated that it will not employ him. He may be able to get work overseas.
OB
 
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samwise gamgee

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You know, I don't find that I need to convince people about sin. People know it instinctively. They know the brokenness of their lives, their relationships. They know their own wounds. I don't need to spend time hammering that home; they get it.
Most people know they have problems but how many of them will acknowledge that their own sinfulness has contributed to these problems?
 
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RDKirk

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Most people know they have problems but how many of them will acknowledge that their own sinfulness has contributed to these problems?

You still have the cart before the horse, soteriologically speaking.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. -- Romans 8

And even more significantly:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them." -- John 6

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." -- John 6

Until God has done His work in them--and that work is to convict them of sin--all your preaching is feckless.

You are not the one to prepare them for the gospel, God is.
 
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Paidiske

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Most people know they have problems but how many of them will acknowledge that their own sinfulness has contributed to these problems?

Most, in my experience.

I really don't find that people need me to convince them of sin. (Nor, as RDKirk pointed out up thread, is convicting people something we can or should try to do). That bit, they get. It's convincing them of grace that's a much, much harder conversation.

Stuff like these tweets doesn't help.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I'm not assuming it's not possible; but I have worked with enough people who have sincerely prayed for change to know that it doesn't happen for everyone who seeks it. We need to be honest about that.

And I do think that same-sex attraction is different to alcoholism, in a variety of ways.

Our task as the church is to support and encourage each person in their particular situation, not to push them away; and that's the problem I have with messages such as are being discussed here. That they push people away from God and from the Church rather than offering support and encouragement and hope. They're never going to find what deliverance and grace God offers if we've already told them their place is in hell.
We've got a lot of people who still drink themselves to death too. One of my siblings, for example.

This doesn't mean God created some of us to drink and we just can't help it. The Church would do a great disservice to others if it told them that, that God created them to be alcoholics. And that's exactly what we are doing in this other context.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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You still have the cart before the horse, soteriologically speaking.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. -- Romans 8

And even more significantly:

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them." -- John 6

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." -- John 6

Until God has done His work in them--and that work is to convict them of sin--all your preaching is feckless.

You are not the one to prepare them for the gospel, God is.
True, but how are they to hear if not for someone preaching the truth?

Romans 10:4 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Offense often - I would even say usually - comes before conviction by the Holy Spirit. The enemy fights not to lose his ground, no matter what ground he has taken.
 
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RDKirk

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True, but how are they to hear if not for someone preaching the truth?

Romans 10:4 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Offense often - I would even say usually - comes before conviction by the Holy Spirit. The enemy fights not to lose his ground, no matter what ground he has taken.

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier:

You cannot find a single example, not a single one, of Jesus or any apostle telling anyone first "the bad news" before telling them the good news. That's not the way they did evangelism.

But now you've just made up your own methodology for evangelism, and you're defending it with other stuff you have made up.

You won't find that from Jesus or the apostles, not by instruction or by example.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I'm going to repeat what I said earlier:

You cannot find a single example, not a single one, of Jesus or any apostle telling anyone first "the bad news" before telling them the good news. That's not the way they did evangelism.

But now you've just made up your own methodology for evangelism, and you're defending it with other stuff you have made up.

You won't find that from Jesus or the apostles, not by instruction or by example.
"My own methodology" directly from Romans 10? I guess you know better than scripture.

Paul IS an apostle, by the way.

And that assertion about Jesus is false also.

The Sermon on the Mount. Jesus tells them what not to do as well as what to do. Both.

Woman at the well. He tells her what she is doing is wrong FIRST.

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Woman caught in adultery.

Jesus tells her that He doesn't condemn her either and to "Go, and sin no more." He does not give her - or the ones who wanted to stone her - a feel good message first before delivering the command.

What you are saying is just not true. The Holy Spirit has to pave the way, or the person cannot even understand it, but if he has a heart to believe, the truth will take root.
 
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keith99

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"My own methodology" directly from Romans 10? I guess you know better than scripture.

Paul IS an apostle, by the way.

And that assertion about Jesus is false also.

The Sermon on the Mount. Jesus tells them what not to do as well as what to do. Both.

Woman at the well. He tells her what she is doing is wrong FIRST.

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Woman caught in adultery.

Jesus tells her that He doesn't condemn her either and to "Go, and sin no more." He does not give her - or the ones who wanted to stone her - a feel good message first before delivering the command.

What you are saying is just not true. The Holy Spirit has to pave the way, or the person cannot even understand it, but if he has a heart to believe, the truth will take root.

Where does Jesus even come close to 'giving the bad news' by calling her a sinner, let alone saying she was going to hell for her sins?

What little one can find on that serves primarily to establish Jesus as (at least) a Prophet since he tells her in exact and falsifiable detail about her lovers. Down teh the number of them, in a rather stark contrast to those who today make 'prophecies'.

EDIT: Not to mention that this is a late insertion. It is NOT in the earliest manuscripts that we have.

The Woman Caught in Adultery
 
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samwise gamgee

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You cannot find a single example, not a single one, of Jesus or any apostle telling anyone first "the bad news" before telling them the good news. That's not the way they did evangelism.
What about John the Baptist?
 
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Paidiske

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This doesn't mean God created some of us to drink and we just can't help it. The Church would do a great disservice to others if it told them that, that God created them to be alcoholics. And that's exactly what we are doing in this other context.

I disagree. Nobody is suggesting that we pat people with same-sex attraction on the head, tell them they can't change, and bless a promiscuous lifestyle for them.

There's a whole wide chasm between that and not making our primary message "You're going to hell."

I have, for example, a gay man in my congregation; someone who has turned to Christ and who does the best he can to live a Christian life. His sexuality might not have moved at all, but the grace of God is at work in his life in powerful and important ways. (And who am I to dictate how the Holy Spirit should be at work in his life?) And I think of him and so many others like him, and I want to make sure our church doors are always open to them.
 
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RDKirk

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I disagree. Nobody is suggesting that we pat people with same-sex attraction on the head, tell them they can't change, and bless a promiscuous lifestyle for them.

There's a whole wide chasm between that and not making our primary message "You're going to hell."

And that is only true if Jesus doesn't work. If the aim is to bring that person to Jesus, and if salvation works to change him, then he's not going to hell...and never was. So it was a lie in the first place.

I have, for example, a gay man in my congregation; someone who has turned to Christ and who does the best he can to live a Christian life. His sexuality might not have moved at all, but the grace of God is at work in his life in powerful and important ways. (And who am I to dictate how the Holy Spirit should be at work in his life?) And I think of him and so many others like him, and I want to make sure our church doors are always open to them.

I do not believe homosexuality is compatible with a Christian life. But I know that heterosexual promiscuity is also incompatible with a Christian life, and I know there are promiscuous homosexuals with no intention of changing, but yet sitting in the pews singing as loudly as anyone.

And the push for promiscuous heterosexuality is just as much "in your face" in Western society as homosexuality--and has been for a while.

Of course, those are just two of what we consider "big" sins...but there is no big sins or small sins with Christ. How many people in the pews are greedy, gossiping, unforgiving, et cetera?

I don't know about it all. Except that outside the Body of Christ, they have no chance.
 
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