"Grace alone " is a big excuse for lazy Christians

[BNR32FAN]

The truth is that because Jesus died for us on the cross, when we receive Him as Saviour, there are no longer any rules for living.

I hope you are saying that sarcasticly. Matthew 7:21-23 would disagree with that statement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Would you agree that a genuinely converted believer will show love, peace, joy, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, patience, and self-control in all his dealings with God and with others?

I believe that if these fruit of the Spirit are being showing in his life and conduct, then the believer is performing the works that show evidence of a genuine conversion to Christ and the new heart on which the new law is written.

I object to the willingness of "holier than thou" religious folk imposing rules and commandments on others and misusing the "obedience" Scriptures to support their actions. No believer has to comply with a controlling witchcraft spirit in people like that.

The good works that arise out of the fruit of the Spirit come from within the person, from his new heart, and not through outward rules imposed by performance-based churches and religious folk.

While I do agree there are some performance based churches I think in most cases people who believe works are necessary for salvation are often misunderstood and often intentionally misrepresented by some who do not believe works are necessary for salvation. In my opinion John 15:1-10 is very strong evidence supporting the idea that works are necessary for abiding in Christ which in turn is necessary for salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I hope you are saying that sarcasticly. Matthew 7:21-23 would disagree with that statement.

No, I am not. The only way a person can be saved is to receive Christ as Saviour, putting his trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross and receiving salvation as a free gift, without thr requirement of works. If a person tries to mix works with faith for salvation he will remain lost in his sins.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While I do agree there are some performance based churches I think in most cases people who believe works are necessary for salvation are often misunderstood and often intentionally misrepresented by some who do not believe works are necessary for salvation. In my opinion John 15:1-10 is very strong evidence supporting the idea that works are necessary for abiding in Christ which in turn is necessary for salvation.

Anyone who trusts in works for salvation is lost. Salvation is a free gift for those who trust in Christ alone. Thousands of Protestant reformers died as martyrs for standing on that truth of Scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is safety in holding back from judging others that don't seem "kosher" to us. Appearances can be deceiving in both ways: a person can appear very committed and passionate for Christ, and yet his heart may still be in the world, and another person may seem full of inconsistencies and problems and yet his heart may be totally right with God. We cannot know by just looking at a person and viewing their conduct.

Many whom we think are great Christians, may not appear when we go up in the Rapture, and we might find them coming up for judgment and Christ saying, "I never knew you". And we might find some of the real "problem cases" coming up along with us in the Rapture and being highly rewarded by Christ for the things that He saw that we didn't see.

The bottom line is that we are to examine ourselves to ensure that we are in the faith because we are not going to be judged by Christ in comparison with anyone else. The parable of the Pharisee and the Publican is a good example of this. The Pharisee was there telling the Lord about all the good things he was doing, and how he was not breaking the Law, and then comparing his "holy" state with the "sinfulness" of the Publican. All the Publican said was: "Lord, forgive me, a sinner." Jesus said that the Publican was justified over the Pharisee.

Paul taught that we should judge members in the church and I’ve always viewed that as a really tough situation. He even went so far as to have a man excommunicated from the church for sleeping with his father’s wife. He did later tell the church to go to the man and invite him back but in my opinion this could be a really delicate situation because the person could be angry or even embarrassed and not want to come back. I think if my church had done this to me when I backslid as a new believer I probably wouldn’t have returned for fear of being judged.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Anyone who trusts in works for salvation is lost. Salvation is a free gift for those who trust in Christ alone. Thousands of Protestant reformers died as martyrs for standing on that truth of Scripture.

What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10?

 

[DamianWarS]

I observed that many Christians are very lazy nowadays.

They prefer doing nothing for Jesus and said that "Grace alone " "we are not saved by Work ".

Then everyone is in idol mode to wait to go to Heaven.

Laziness is a big sin.

may I suggest your problem isn't against "grace alone" but rather against lazy people. grace excites and revives, it doesn't dull or rust. So if someone seems more identifiable with the latter then perhaps grace is not the problem.

 

[Anthony2019]

I observed that many Christians are very lazy nowadays.

They prefer doing nothing for Jesus and said that "Grace alone " "we are not saved by Work ".

Then everyone is in idol mode to wait to go to Heaven.

Laziness is a big sin.

Lord, I pray that Christians everywhere will seek to follow you and do your will.
Let it start with me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for your great information. I enjoyed reading it.

You are most welcome. But all glory be to the Lord (of course).

I think that a professing believer who could be an axe murdering rapist and child abuser cannot show genuine conversion because non of those things fit into the fruit of a person who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

There are plenty of records in church history and current events where religious people have murdered thousands over the centuries, and others have recently been exposed as child abusers. These may have professed Christianity, but they were and are far from it.

While it is possible that they could have never truly had a born again experience before, it is also possible that they can depart from the living God by the deceitfulness of sin, too.

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12-13).​

In verse 13 above here: We are to told to exhort the brethren on a daily basis so that no believer can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Why is the hardening of the deceitfulness a sin a problem? Verse 12 gives us the answer. It says that an evil heart of unbelief can make us to depart from the living God. Sin can harden our heart to be an evil heart of unbelief.

God tried to reason with Cain in the fact that he had a choice in doing either good or evil in Genesis 4:7. This would be nonsensical of God to try and reason with Cain, if he did not have the capacity to do good. Cain merely chose of his own free will to harden his heart by the deceitfulness of sin.

We are told that blessed is the man who ENDURES temptation, for by doing so he will receive the crown of life in James 1:12. Does the regenerated man always ENDURE temptation? Did Peter always endure temptation? The point here is that James 1:12 is admonition to every believer and James 1:12 is not describing just the characteristic of born again people with James then saying.... Be born again so you can have these qualities. James is merely laying out a standard or code of ethics for all born again believers to follow. For if enduring temptation was an automatic thing for the born again believer, he would never mention this. He would just stress in being born again.

Side Note:

I am not discounting the fact that we do need to be born again spiritually. But being again spiritually does not take away a person's free will choice in serving God. A believer still has a choice to turn back to their old way of life. For we see this in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We don’t do works to earn salvation we do works because we abide in Christ and He abides in us. If we abide in Him and He in us we will bear much fruit. John 15:1-10

Romans Four, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

But make no mistake, if we choose not to love God, or not love our neighbor we will not inherit eternal life because Luke 10:25-28 says we need to do these things so as to live. We need to keep the moral law (like do not murder, do not steal, etc.) if we want to enter into life as per the words of Jesus (Matthew 19:17-19). We need to help the poor in this life, otherwise, will be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). God expects us to obey, and if we refuse, we will not be saved. Grace gives us the opportunity to obey in this life. For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). The grace of God does not teach us to just believe on Jesus and minimize sin. So yes; It is true, we do not earn our salvation in the sense that we are in a Works ALONE Plan of Salvation Type System (without God's grace), but we do need to do works of responsibility as a part of the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace. For we are not our own. We are bought and paid for with a price.

Side Note:

I believe Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:1-4 is talking about Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation. These pieces of Scripture is to help refute Works ALONE Salvationism that did not include God's saving grace because Paul was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" that was starting to gain in popularity during his time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I am not. The only way a person can be saved is to receive Christ as Saviour, putting his trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross and receiving salvation as a free gift, without thr requirement of works. If a person tries to mix works with faith for salvation he will remain lost in his sins.

Then how do you make sense out of the following Scripture like Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, Titus 1:16, and Romans 8:13? For me: This is clearly teaching we have to do something as a part of everlasting life or to maintain our eternal life status (after being saved by God's grace).

Note:

Please keep in mind that when Paul is condemning the "Law" (like if you seek to be justified by the law you have fallen from grace), he is referring to the OLD Law (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole contractually speaking). This was because the context tells us it's the law of Moses because he was talking about the problem of "Circumcision Salvationism" most times. Paul is not referring to the commandments that Jesus gave us that do pertain to inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, Titus 1:16, Romans 8:13, Revelation 21:8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

may I suggest your problem isn't against "grace alone" but rather against lazy people. grace excites and revives, it doesn't dull or rust. So if someone seems more identifiable with the latter then perhaps grace is not the problem.

He is not suggesting that there is a problem with grace, but he is referring to those who believe in the doctrine that makes salvation all about grace alone with no obedience attached. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

God has chosen to salvation through two things.

#1. Belief in the Truth (i.e. Jesus is the Truth, John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (i.e. the process of the Spirit helping us to live a holy life).

 

[truthisfreedom2019]

Unfortunately...we always need grace..

Please provide a verse that supports your statement. You statement seems off.

Yes, we do always need grace for there is always something we fail in. We fail in ignorance. Hebrews 4:16 (Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.) Jesus that was and is full of grace needed not grace for failer for he had no sin. It is us sinners that needs grace. For that verse to make reference to a time of need would mean there would be a time when there was no need. That would be referring to a specific sin. the child that listened and obeyed concerning the cookie jar would be failing somewhere else so he would need grace but not for the cookie jar matter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, we do always need grace for there is always something we fail in. We fail in ignorance. Hebrews 4:16 (Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.) Jesus that was and is full of grace needed not grace for failer for he had no sin. It is us sinners that needs grace. For that verse to make reference to a time of need would mean there would be a time when there was no need. That would be referring to a specific sin. the child that listened and obeyed concerning the cookie jar would be failing somewhere else so he would need grace but not for the cookie jar matter.

But this is not what God's grace teaches us. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12).

 

[truthisfreedom2019]

But this is not what God's grace teaches us. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world

Yes, that is the whole purpose of grace for it is cleansed that shall be saved. Grace gives one time to make things right with God and live according to his will.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, that is the whole purpose of grace for it is cleansed that shall be saved. Grace gives one time to make things right with God and live according to his will.

I just came across this passage as a part of my studies today.

21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Peter 2:21-25).

It says we WERE (past tense) as sheep going astray. But we now follow Jesus in his steps. So believers cannot justify a sin and still be saved doctrine because Jesus never taught such a thing. Grace is to lead us into an upright walk. But if folks teach that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved, or if they teach that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting) and still be saved (as long as they live a holy life generally), then they are not teaching the true Grace of God that denies ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly this present world. So it is more than just having a belief on Jesus. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Right, I don’t see how reading the entire chapter would help promote a sin and still be saved type belief or a belief alone type faith.

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

What commands could Jesus be talking about?

Does keeping them relate to salvation?

Well, if you read Luke 10:25-28, you would learn that Jesus agreed with the truth from the lawyer that one needs to love God (with some details) and to love your neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus did not correct the lawyer and tell him to just believe in Him and not worry about his sin; Jesus said, “Do this, and you will live.”

If that is not enough, Jesus says in Matthew 19:17-19 that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus described this as the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, etc.). If you were to skip to the end of Matthew 19, Jesus does not say anything about how you can actually sin and still be saved. His point was in inheritance of everlasting life via one’s actions.

The primary problem with the misunderstanding by all camps on scriptures like this is that they do not have a clue what Eternal Life means and is. When you learn that, then you will understand.

 

[BBAS 64]

Yes, we do always need grace for there is always something we fail in. We fail in ignorance. Hebrews 4:16 (Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.) Jesus that was and is full of grace needed not grace for failer for he had no sin. It is us sinners that needs grace. For that verse to make reference to a time of need would mean there would be a time when there was no need. That would be referring to a specific sin. the child that listened and obeyed concerning the cookie jar would be failing somewhere else so he would need grace but not for the cookie jar matter.

Good Day, Truthisfreedom

The phase here "time of need" is an adjective that modify the noun (fem) help.

Grammatical construction requires the adjective modifies it's noun all the time every time... all the time.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Calvin_1985]

I just came across this passage as a part of my studies today.

21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Peter 2:21-25).

It says we WERE (past tense) as sheep going astray. But we now follow Jesus in his steps. So believers cannot justify a sin and still be saved doctrine because Jesus never taught such a thing. Grace is to lead us into an upright walk. But if folks teach that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved, or if they teach that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting) and still be saved (as long as they live a holy life generally), then they are not teaching the true Grace of God that denies ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly this present world. So it is more than just having a belief on Jesus. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

So Salvation is then predicated upon a persons works?

 

[dad]

Grace is what forgives a person for sins prior to baptism.

He that has begun a good work in us will finish it. Grace has not border that stops at being 'baptized'.