LDS The Gospel

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
God did not ask Joseph Smith to reject the Bible nor did the angel Moroni. The Bible is mostly right but it does disagree with itself on occasion. One of these is:
(New Testament | John 1:18)

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We know of an assuredly that Adam did indeed see God. Jacob also saw God:

(Old Testament | Genesis 33:10)

10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me. There is one sure way to live with God:

(New Testament | John 14:23 - 24)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

No--God did not ask JS to do that--nor would He ever say that. This Moroni character, however, did! He told JS he was not to join any of them, for they were all wrong and then proceeds to tell him that he (JS) was going to have the truth!
The God of the OT is Jesus Christ. That is who created Adam and Eve and Lucifer and everything---that is who they saw---God the Father has never been seen face to face. And we are not told in what form Jesus He was seen.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
No--God did not ask JS to do that--nor would He ever say that. This Moroni character, however, did! He told JS he was not to join any of them, for they were all wrong and then proceeds to tell him that he (JS) was going to have the truth!
The God of the OT is Jesus Christ. That is who created Adam and Eve and Lucifer and everything---that is who they saw---God the Father has never been seen face to face. And we are not told in what form Jesus He was seen.
The angel Moroni was prophesied of in the Bible:
(New Testament | Revelation 14:6 - 7)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I will enlighten you a bit:

1 Nephi 13 (600 B.C.)
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away [the Bible]it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.


Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Alma 7
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

2 Nephi 2
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

2 Nephi 5
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

2 Nephi 25
21 Wherefore, for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down unto my seed, from generation to generation, that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph, that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand.

You are right about one thing:

Joseph Smith added a whole slew of false teachings in two other books he called scripture!
Thanks for that! It looks obvious that JS believed that the Mormon church was the only true church (the church of the Lamb of God) and that all other churches are churches of the devil. This is similar to the core beliefs of the RCC, JWs, and the SDAs. The long-term objective of the Mormon church is to control the religion of the whole world. This may mean "convert to Mormonism or die". This is the same core teaching of Islam; and the RCC has proved this in previous centuries before and during the Reformation.

Also, along with the RCC, the Mormon church is more wealthy than the U.S. government. It has financial control of many organisations right around the world. So there is a very strong financial incentive for the Mormon church to be seen as credible for the majority of its members. If the church lost its credibility and multitudes of members left, it would lose the 10% compulsory tithe that members pay. It is actually unbelievable how much wealth as been amassed through the tithes of its members. Mormon leaders would never want to have that financial wealth base threatened in any way.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
God did not ask Joseph Smith to reject the Bible nor did the angel Moroni. The Bible is mostly right but it does disagree with itself on occasion. One of these is:
(New Testament | John 1:18)

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We know of an assuredly that Adam did indeed see God. Jacob also saw God:

(Old Testament | Genesis 33:10)

10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me. There is one sure way to live with God:

(New Testament | John 14:23 - 24)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Read Phoebe's post. There is a quote that definitely states that those churches that believe the Bible (and not the Book of Mormon) as the sole authority for faith in Christ are churches of the devil. Joseph Smith says quite clearly that only those who accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God are those in The Church of the Lamb of God (in other words the LDS church).

Is that what you believe?
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The angel Moroni was prophesied of in the Bible:
(New Testament | Revelation 14:6 - 7)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

That was not your angel---this was:

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Thanks for that! It looks obvious that JS believed that the Mormon church was the only true church (the church of the Lamb of God) and that all other churches are churches of the devil. This is similar to the core beliefs of the RCC, JWs, and the SDAs. The long-term objective of the Mormon church is to control the religion of the whole world. This may mean "convert to Mormonism or die". This is the same core teaching of Islam; and the RCC has proved this in previous centuries before and during the Reformation.

Also, along with the RCC, the Mormon church is more wealthy than the U.S. government. It has financial control of many organisations right around the world. So there is a very strong financial incentive for the Mormon church to be seen as credible for the majority of its members. If the church lost its credibility and multitudes of members left, it would lose the 10% compulsory tithe that members pay. It is actually unbelievable how much wealth as been amassed through the tithes of its members. Mormon leaders would never want to have that financial wealth base threatened in any way.


Hey, hey, hey!!! We do not believe that we are the only church that will be saved!!! We do not believe that all the other Christian churches are of the devil!! We believe that God's people are in every denomination!
We believe that one day---everyone will come out and be one as is promised. If Mother Theresa is not saved---I would definitely want to know why not--for I view her as definitely saintly!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: He is the way
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Read Phoebe's post. There is a quote that definitely states that those churches that believe the Bible (and not the Book of Mormon) as the sole authority for faith in Christ are churches of the devil. Joseph Smith says quite clearly that only those who accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God are those in The Church of the Lamb of God (in other words the LDS church).

Is that what you believe?
There are only two churches on the earth, those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and those who follow the devil:
(New Testament | John 8:42 - 44)

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

As individuals each person makes makes their own decision who they will follow. One of Christ's apostles was a devil:

(New Testament | John 6:70)

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Therefore let us all choose to follow Jesus Christ and keep the commandments.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
That was not your angel---this was:

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
I will agree to disagree with you.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Hey, hey, hey!!! We do not believe that we are the only church that will be saved!!! We do not believe that all the other Christian churches are of the devil!! We believe that God's people are in every denomination!
We believe that one day---everyone will come out and be one as is promised. If Mother Theresa is not saved---I would definitely want to know why not--for I view her as definitely saintly!
Well said.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
There are only two churches on the earth, those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and those who follow the devil:
(New Testament | John 8:42 - 44)

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

As individuals each person makes makes their own decision who they will follow. One of Christ's apostles was a devil:

(New Testament | John 6:70)

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Therefore let us all choose to follow Jesus Christ and keep the commandments.


At this time, there truly were only 2 churches, those who followed Jesus and those who didn't.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: He is the way
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
There are only two churches on the earth, those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and those who follow the devil:
(New Testament | John 8:42 - 44)

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

As individuals each person makes makes their own decision who they will follow. One of Christ's apostles was a devil:

(New Testament | John 6:70)

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Therefore let us all choose to follow Jesus Christ and keep the commandments.
I think that Joseph Smith mistook Justification and Sanctification. He merged the two. According to the New Testament, Justification is the free gift of God through Jesus dying in our place when He went to the cross. His death on the cross took God's wrath and punishment for sin on Himself, setting us free from it. Sanctification is following the commandments voluntarily, not be obligation in order to be saved, so that we lift up and glorify Jesus in our lives. Paul defined Sanctification as love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, goodness, patience, faithfulness, and self-control. He says that against such there is no Law. What he meant was that if these attributes were the character of our lives, we are following all the the commandments because they all involve these attributes.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
There are only two churches on the earth, those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and those who follow the devil:
(New Testament | John 8:42 - 44)

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

As individuals each person makes makes their own decision who they will follow. One of Christ's apostles was a devil:

(New Testament | John 6:70)

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Therefore let us all choose to follow Jesus Christ and keep the commandments.
So, because the Seventh Day Adventist church teaches exactly the same about keeping the commandments of Christ, do you believe that they are a true church as well as yours, seeing that you both teach exactly the same principles about Christian living?
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So, because the Seventh Day Adventist church teaches exactly the same about keeping the commandments of Christ, do you believe that they are a true church as well as yours, seeing that you both teach exactly the same principles about Christian living?

NO!! We do not teach exactly as the Mormons do! We keep the commandments of God (not of man) because we are saved, not in order to be saved! They do not save--they are the result of being saved. Salvation is by the grace of God alone. When we love God we attain to His perfect character of love which is demonstrated by the fruits of the spirit. We love God and our fellow man as Jesus summed them up---

Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
NO!! We do not teach exactly as the Mormons do! We keep the commandments of God (not of man) because we are saved, not in order to be saved! They do not save--they are the result of being saved. Salvation is by the grace of God alone. When we love God we attain to His perfect character of love which is demonstrated by the fruits of the spirit. We love God and our fellow man as Jesus summed them up---

Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I knew that.

I wanted to see the response from our Mormon friend. It is obvious that he is not a fundamentalist LDS, and is great to discuss with.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
So, because the Seventh Day Adventist church teaches exactly the same about keeping the commandments of Christ, do you believe that they are a true church as well as yours, seeing that you both teach exactly the same principles about Christian living?
Where did the Seventh Day Adventists get their priesthood authority? Also where did the Pentecostals get their priesthood authority? Our priesthood authority came through John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John, who got it from Jesus Christ. It was conferred on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by them personally.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Where did the Seventh Day Adventists get their priesthood authority? Also where did the Pentecostals get their priesthood authority? Our priesthood authority came through John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John, who got it from Jesus Christ. It was conferred on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by them personally.
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:5-6).

This means that every person who has received Christ as Saviour and Lord is a king and a priest to God, giving each individual direct access to God without having to go through a human mediating priest. The Levitical priesthood passed into history the moment the great Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom by the hand of God. Therefore it was God Himself who made the priesthood redundant.

There is only one High Priest and He is Jesus who intercedes for us before the throne of God. "There is no mediator between God and man except the man Jesus Christ" (1 Timothy 2:5).
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Where did the Seventh Day Adventists get their priesthood authority? Also where did the Pentecostals get their priesthood authority? Our priesthood authority came through John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John, who got it from Jesus Christ. It was conferred on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by them personally.


We don't have a Priesthood!! Jesus Christ is our High Priest. We have what the apostles set up---pastors, deacons, elders--so on. The apostles, nor Jesus, set up any priest hood---you will not find the word in relation to the gospel, we are all kings and priests of God.
 
Upvote 0

Ironhold

Member
Feb 14, 2014
7,625
1,463
✟201,967.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Single
It has financial control of many organisations right around the world.

This is yet another popular anti-Mormon conspiracy theory that people like to throw around.

The vast majority of those organizations were created as a result of various church leaders taking a "demand-side" view of economics: there's a need, no trustworthy secular alternative exists, so...

The vast majority of these groups operate as wholly-owned subsidiaries, in that they make their own day-to-day decisions and are responsible for their own bottom lines. The church can utilize them as needed for the larger purpose (for example, Deseret Book prints the hymnals), but are otherwise on their own.

In fact, the church has actually divested itself of assets and organizations over the years, such as when they sold off ZCMI to Macy's, spun off an insurance company, and had Bonneville Communications sell off half its radio stations (exiting several media markets in the process).

Believe it or not.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,333.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
This is yet another popular anti-Mormon conspiracy theory that people like to throw around.

The vast majority of those organizations were created as a result of various church leaders taking a "demand-side" view of economics: there's a need, no trustworthy secular alternative exists, so...

The vast majority of these groups operate as wholly-owned subsidiaries, in that they make their own day-to-day decisions and are responsible for their own bottom lines. The church can utilize them as needed for the larger purpose (for example, Deseret Book prints the hymnals), but are otherwise on their own.

In fact, the church has actually divested itself of assets and organizations over the years, such as when they sold off ZCMI to Macy's, spun off an insurance company, and had Bonneville Communications sell off half its radio stations (exiting several media markets in the process).

Believe it or not.
One of our Mormon friends on the thread informed us of the great work that the church does in many areas. There is no doubt about that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:5-6).

This means that every person who has received Christ as Saviour and Lord is a king and a priest to God, giving each individual direct access to God without having to go through a human mediating priest. The Levitical priesthood passed into history the moment the great Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom by the hand of God. Therefore it was God Himself who made the priesthood redundant.

There is only one High Priest and He is Jesus who intercedes for us before the throne of God. "There is no mediator between God and man except the man Jesus Christ" (1 Timothy 2:5).
No, I believe this refers to Christ's anointed:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:4)

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
 
Upvote 0