Protestant reformers reform what?

[Albion]

So, when the Baptists say women cannot be pastors and the Methodists say they can, the two groups are not at odds with each other?

I think he is saying that they are outside of the framework we started with, the Reformation or at least the "Reformers," a term usually associated with the great figures of that era.

 

[FireDragon76]

Only Anglican, Calvinist, Lutheran and maybe Methodists can be accepted as reformation churches.

Pentecostal, Adventists are modern American churches. The simple fact that they are not RCC does not mean they are automatically part of reformation.

But still, I was responding to: "thousands of different competing ideologies, each at odds with and often condemning the others"

There is no such thing.

They are Restorationists, which used to be a purely American phenomenon. In some ways they are taking an impulse from the Reformed churches to an even greater degree. They are no longer evangelical in the sense that Reformed or Lutherans would understand it, since they typically deny that justification is by faith alone, in practice or in theory. They believe baptism is a requirement for salvation, instead of a means of grace.

 

[HTacianas]

I think he is saying that they are outside of the framework we started with, the Reformation or at least the "Reformers," a term usually associated with the great figures of that era.

The thread began "Protestant Reformers". I gave a brief synopsis of the history of the protestant reformation from its beginning down to modern times. But I can only assign to words like "protestant" their usual and customary meanings. The usual and customary meaning of "protestant" can be found at dictionary.com:

Protestant
[prot-uh-stuh nt or for 4, 6, pruh-tes-tuh nt]

Noun
any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican,or Eastern Church.

Anadherent of any of thoseChristian bodies that separatedfrom the Church of Rome duringthe Reformation, or of any groupdescended from them.

 

[Albion]

The thread began "Protestant Reformers". I gave a brief synopsis of the history of the protestant reformation from its beginning down to modern times. But I can only assign to words like "protestant" their usual and customary meanings. The usual and customary meaning of "protestant" can be found at dictionary.com:.

Wasn't it you who made Seventh-day Adventists and Pentecostals the archetypes of Protestantism a little while back and explain that this was logical because of "evolution?"

 

[HTacianas]

Wasn't it you who made Seventh-day Adventists and Pentecostals the archetypes of Protestantism a little while back and explain that this was logical because of "evolution?"

No I did not do anything of the sort. I used them as examples of protestant groups who are at odds with each other.

 

[PaulCyp1]

If "reforming" Christianity means fragmenting it into thousands of unauthorized conflicting manmade denominations teaching thousands of contradictory, and therefore false beliefs, then consider it "reformed". However, the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ concerning His followers was and still is "that they all may be ONE, even as I and My heavenly Father are ONE". He insisted on unity because that is the only way truth can exist. If two churches teach conflicting beliefs, at least one of them has to be teaching untruth, because truth cannot conflict with truth. Which is why Jesus Christ founded ONE Church, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that ONE Church remains ONE in belief, ONE in teaching, ONE in worship, ONE in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, with NO conflicting denominations!

 

[Albion]

At odds with each other? Hmm. If that was the intent, why not use a couple of Protestant churches that have significant memberships and a prominent place in the history of Protestantism, then? That would really illustrate the point. Lutherans and Presbyterians, for example? There certainly are doctrinal differences between these two.

 

[FireDragon76]

One example of that is the charismatic groups among Pentecostals who teach that if a person does not speak in tongues they are not truly baptized. By teaching that they condemn all the other groups who do not speak in tongues. Then there are "seventh day" groups that claim that going to Church on Sunday is the mark of the beast. Ive seen their billboards. Guess what happens to people who accept that.

Well, they are obviously wrong. Any doctrine that would condemn the rest of the Christian past is obviously wrong. Whatever our self-understanding is, it must not permit that.

 

[Albion]

If "reforming" Christianity means fragmenting it into thousands of unauthorized conflicting manmade denominations teaching thousands of contradictory, and therefore false beliefs, then consider it "reformed".

Just like the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches!

That is so unhelpful an approach to take every time any question is asked about Protestant churches or history.

 

[HTacianas]

Well, they are obviously wrong. Any doctrine that would condemn the rest of the Christian past is obviously wrong. Whatever our self-understanding is, it must not permit that.

Well at least we agree on what all the words mean.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well at least we agree on what all the words mean.

That's basically why Pr. Jordan Cooper doesn't accept Restorationism, because that's its essential argument.

 

[Albion]

Well at least we agree on what all the words mean.

I don't agree with that first dictionary.org definition of Protestantism. It is obviously wrong, but that source is known for giving colloquial or popular-usage definitions rather than the real definition of whatever it is, so I guess that is the explanation.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't agree with that first dictionary.org definition of Protestantism. It is obviously wrong, but that source is known for giving colloquial or popular-usage definitions rather than the real definition of whatever it is, so I guess that is the explanation.

Anglicans were historically Protestant. In fact it was illegal for the monarch of England to be anything but a Protestant for a long time, even to this day.

 

[Albion]

Anglicans were historically Protestant. In fact it was illegal for the monarch of England to be anything but a Protestant for a long time, even to this day.

Yes. So?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Did they really reform anything?

Yes they Reformed the Church. Western civilization is what it is today because of the Reformation. The early forerunners and invention of the Gutenberg's press were pivotal towards the Reformation all across Europe. To think they accomplished nothing, is to be ignorant of history and or sorely lacking appreciation for our freedoms and modern conveniences among other things.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes. So?

So anything definition that says Anglicans aren't Protestant is playing fast and loose with historical reality.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes they Reformed the Church. Western civilization is what it is today because of the Reformation. The early forerunners and invention of the Gutenberg's press were pivotal towards the Reformation all across Europe. To think they accomplished nothing, is to be ignorant of history and or sorely lacking appreciation for our freedoms and modern conveniences among other things.

That's actually the main reason I stopped taking Orthodoxy's self-understanding seriously. Because while Byzantium and Kievan Rus were fascinating subjects to study, with awe-inspiring cultural achievements and no doubt a certain kind of glory, I wouldn't want to live there. As David Wagschall points out on his blog, Under the Sun, no decent person would wish that even on their worst enemy- and he said that as somebody that is an academic expert on Byzantine Church history.

If I want my little dose of spiritual Disneyland eye candy, I can always go to the Tiffany Glass Museum that's downtown in Winter Park and see Louis Comfort Tiffany's Eduardian-era Byzantine chapel. That little bit of romanticism is enough for me, without all the baggage.

 

[PanDeVida]

Did they really reform anything?

1.The reformers reformed Scripture by taking out 7 books from the Catholic Holy Bible once 73 books on down to 66 Books

2. The Reformers are always reforming and have added thousands of churches Lutherans - Baptist - Presbyterians - Methodist etc... etc... etc... X etc... the list goes on and on and on.

3. Reformers have reformed the Body and Blood of Christ, to mean "How can this man give us His Flesh to Eat".

4. Reformers reformed to go straight to Jesus Christ to have their sins forgiven or retained, when Christ Left His Church fonded on Rock to the Apostles and their Successors to forgive or retain our sins. Otherwise how would you ever know if Christ has forgiven or retained your sins, you can only know this for sure by the Church founded on Rock. Yes, nowhere in Scripture do you read that Christ said come to me to have your sins forgiven or retained.

John 20:23 As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Pan De Vida.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Anglicans, Adventists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Messianics, Quakers, Mennonites, Calvinists, and all of their own splinter groups. All over indulgences?

If we look at the history of the Church, not all of those mentioned came with the Reformation, many denominations came some time later, it is the result of religious freedom. Indulgences were only one little tiny piece of a sour pie. Luther wrote some 95 grievances, and he became one of many reluctant Reformers. It's kind of funny looking back, because Luther really had no intentions of being an outcast, perceived as a rebel heretic, he could not reconcile his external experiences with the Catholic Church with what he learned and was taught through reading Scripture. Oh how dangerous the Scriptures in the hands of a learned professor of theology. Thank the diet of worms for the Reformation, they turned the pages of history as we know it, without their realization of what was to come, and over what?

 

[Albion]

The Protestants also demanded the following reforms:

That the action--the work--of the priest at the holy table be seen and heard by the people.

That the cup/wine be administered to the laity in communion along with the bread and not just reserved for the priest.

That the laity be given a role in the liturgy.

That the liturgy, the Mass, be in a language understood by the common people.

That that laity be allowed to own and read Bibles.

That priests be required to deliver sermons.
………….…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
And every one of these reforms has since been made by the Roman Catholic Church, although of course there was no admitting that they had previously been urged upon the church by the Protestant Reformers.