Catholic and Protestant reformers

[mathinspiration]

Who were the greatest?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Who were the greatest?

Jesus and His Father (the only ones who can re-form a life from death to alive).

 

[Mary Meg]

I'm fond of St. Gregory the Great, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Catherine of Siena, and St. Pius V.

Oh, and I'm Protestant.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm fond of St. Gregory the Great, St. Francis, St. Bernard, St. Catherine of Siena, and St. Pius V.

Oh, and I'm Protestant.

Are they (any of them) reformers ?

 

[Mary Meg]

Are they (any of them) reformers ?

Yes. All of them. Have you read about them?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes. All of them. Have you read about them?

Nothing good. I didn't think they left catholicism .....

re search "reformers" >
"The Reformation (more fully the Protestant Reformation, or the European Reformation) was a movement within Western Christianity in 16th-century Europe that posed a religious and political challenge to the Roman Catholic church – and papal authority in particular."

excerpt from "The Finest of the Wheat" >
"A minister of the word is one who has the revelation of Christ, one in whom God has been pleased to reveal His Son (see Gal. 1.16). It is more than that he just says this is so, but he inwardly knows that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. To say so takes only

440 The Finest of the Wheat

two or three minutes to recite, but the Lord says: “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in the heavens.” To know Christ is better than to know words; it is a seeing. As one sees this vision of the Son of God everything but Christ recedes, be it sanctification, righteousness, or life. Out of this entire universe nothing can be compared with Christ; no spiritual thing can vie with Him, for Christ is all and in all.

Outside of Christ there is neither life nor light, sanctification nor righteousness. Once a man is brought by God into this revelation of Christ, he begins to realize there is nothing apart from Christ. Christ is everything: He is the Son of God as well as the word of God; He is love, sanctification, righteousness, salvation, redemption, deliverance, grace, light and work. He fills everything. All which we have seen in the past, however much it may be, fades away before Him. Nothing can stand its ground before this grand revelation. Moses and Elijah disappear, so do Peter, James, and John. The Lord Jesus alone remains. He fills all and is all. Christ is the center as well as the circumference. God’s center and periphery are found in Christ.

After a person passes through this basic experience of being brought by God to Christ for a true knowledge of His Son, he begins to know the word of God. Thus shall he be able to supply Christ. Without this revelation of Christ, no one is able to minister Him to others."

 

[Albion]

Yes. All of them. Have you read about them?

These people were influential in the church, but "Reformers?" There isn't much to point to in that respect.

 

[FireDragon76]

These people were influential in the church, but "Reformers?" There isn't much to point to in that respect.

Catherine of Siena, in her own way protested the Avignon Papacy.

 

[TuxAme]

Greatest in what sense?

 

[Mary Meg]

These people were influential in the church, but "Reformers?" There isn't much to point to in that respect.

The OP asked for "reformers," not "Reformers." And not just "Protestant Reformers," but specifically for "Catholic" also. So these people were all great proponents for reforming the faith and practice of the Christian Church, long before the Protestant Reformation (with the exception of Pius V; he is a "Catholic Reformer" in the capital-R sense). The idea of a "Reformation" is that there is something worth reforming. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al. didn't invent the idea of reform.

 

[Mary Meg]

.

 

[Dave-W]

Not all reformers had to leave the RCC.
The best reforms often are from within.

 

[Pádraigín Ní Saorlaith]

Who were the greatest?

Martin Luther and John Calvin are the Protestant Reformers I'm most familiar with. Between the two, I like Luther better.

By Catholic Reformers, do you mean Catholics who either attempted to reform the Western Church and/or their respective religious orders before the Reformation, or do you mean the Counter-Reformation?

Nothing good. I didn't think they left catholicism .....

re search "reformers" >
"The Reformation (more fully the Protestant Reformation, or the European Reformation) was a movement within Western Christianity in 16th-century Europe that posed a religious and political challenge to the Roman Catholic church – and papal authority in particular."

excerpt from "The Finest of the Wheat" >
"A minister of the word is one who has the revelation of Christ, one in whom God has been pleased to reveal His Son (see Gal. 1.16). It is more than that he just says this is so, but he inwardly knows that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. To say so takes only

440 The Finest of the Wheat

two or three minutes to recite, but the Lord says: “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in the heavens.” To know Christ is better than to know words; it is a seeing. As one sees this vision of the Son of God everything but Christ recedes, be it sanctification, righteousness, or life. Out of this entire universe nothing can be compared with Christ; no spiritual thing can vie with Him, for Christ is all and in all.

Outside of Christ there is neither life nor light, sanctification nor righteousness. Once a man is brought by God into this revelation of Christ, he begins to realize there is nothing apart from Christ. Christ is everything: He is the Son of God as well as the word of God; He is love, sanctification, righteousness, salvation, redemption, deliverance, grace, light and work. He fills everything. All which we have seen in the past, however much it may be, fades away before Him. Nothing can stand its ground before this grand revelation. Moses and Elijah disappear, so do Peter, James, and John. The Lord Jesus alone remains. He fills all and is all. Christ is the center as well as the circumference. God’s center and periphery are found in Christ.

After a person passes through this basic experience of being brought by God to Christ for a true knowledge of His Son, he begins to know the word of God. Thus shall he be able to supply Christ. Without this revelation of Christ, no one is able to minister Him to others."

Not to get technical, but leaving Catholicism was never the point of the Reformation. It was an attempt to change the Western Church rather than to found a new one. Were he alive today, Luther would probably not be happy that this schism has lasted for 501 years and counting. "Protestant" is also a broad label. Someone can call themselves a Protestant and not follow orthodox Christian doctrine.

 

[Mary Meg]

Martin Luther and John Calvin are the Protestant Reformers I'm most familiar with. Between the two, I like Luther better.

Not to get technical, but leaving Catholicism was never the point of the Reformation. It was an attempt to change the Western Church rather than to found a new one. Were he alive today, Luther would probably not be happy that this schism has lasted for 501 years and counting. "Protestant" is also a broad label. Someone can call themselves a Protestant and not follow orthodox Christian doctrine.

I was raised Protestant and in a Protestant church and am still a member. But studying the Protestant Reformation in Church History, I've found the whole thing pretty distasteful. Yes, there was corruption in the Catholic Church. Sure, Luther said he had no intention of founding a new church. But by his personality, his temper, his actions, he all but ensured that was going to happen. Calling out the pope as "antichrist" the first time he asks you to defend your position is not a good tack for "working within the church." And responding to excommunication with, "Oh, well I don't need you anyway, I'll just start my own church" is exactly what he said he didn't want to do.

I think somebody with equal zeal, but greater tact, could have done a lot more to reform the Church without fracturing the unity of the Body of Christ for all time. I think that's a huge tragedy and contrary to the will of our Lord (John 17:21). That's why I admire these people.

BTW, I love your avatar. Bouguereau.

 

[Dave-W]

Would you call the guys who started the Cursillo movement which led to the late 1960s Charismatic movement "reformers?" Guys like Ralph Martin, Stephen B. Clark, Fr Michael Scanlan, Cardinal L.J. Suenens and Kevin Ranaghan.

 

[Albion]

The OP asked for "reformers," not "Reformers."

Either way, the vote has to go to the Protestant reformers if we think of what they did and compare that with the record of such as the Catholic figures you named.

Catherine of Siena, for example, is best known for persuading the bishop of Rome to return to Rome from France and take up residence in his own diocese! If that can even be called a reform while maintaining a straight face, it surely does not amount to much of one.

And Francis of Assisi, beloved as he is for his personal attributes, steadfastly refused to get into the reform business at all, so committed was he to respecting the authority of his church and its leaders.

 

[TuxAme]

I'd have to say I'm a fan of reformers- but "reformation" means (essentially) restoration, not creation, so I'd have to put my money on those reformers such as Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint Francis of Assisi and the like.

 

[Mary Meg]

Either way, the vote has to go to the Protestant reformers if we think of what they did and compare that with the record of such as the Catholic figures you named.

"What they did" was fracture the unity of the Body of Christ. So forgive me if I don't vote for that.

EDIT: Granted, there was already schism with the East ... but nothing to the degree that the Protestant churches fractured and continued to fracture.

Catherine of Siena, for example, is best known for persuading the bishop of Rome to return to Rome from France and take up residence in his own diocese! If that can even be called a reform while maintaining a straight face, it surely does not amount to much of one.

Bringing restoration in the face of corruption -- that's not reform? Isn't that the same thing Luther did?

And Francis of Assisi, beloved as he is for his personal attributes, steadfastly refused to get into the reform business at all, so committed was he to respecting the authority of his church and its leaders.

Christ, in a vision, commanded Francis to "rebuild My Church." And in piety, in practice, in zeal, Francis and the Franciscans certainly did that. The fact that he did so without disrespecting authority -- and in fact won the praise of those in authority -- makes him all the more admirable, not the more deplorable.

 

[Jonaitis]

Who were the greatest?

The English Reformation and the Puritans.

 

[Mary Meg]

The English Reformation and the Puritan Movement.

I do admire William Tyndale a lot.