Should trying to conceive a child be made illegal if personhood starts at conception?

ranunculus

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As many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage -- most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. About 15-25% of recognized pregnancies will end in a miscarriage.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

The chance that a person is killed involuntarily is way too high. Let's take a conservative estimate and say the number is somewhere between 10% and 50%. In 2015 there were almost 4 million live births in the United States. That means that between 400,000 and 4 million people (babies / fetuses / zygotes) died to achieve that number.

If every time you drove a car there was a 10 to 50% percent chance that a person ends up dead, you would not be allowed to drive a car.

Should people who think personhood starts at conception be in favor of criminalizing pregnancies? Or is it OK for millions of children to die as long as it results in an equal or greater number of live births?
 

thecolorsblend

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http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

The chance that a person is killed involuntarily is way too high. Let's take a conservative estimate and say the number is somewhere between 10% and 50%. In 2015 there were almost 4 million live births in the United States. That means that between 400,000 and 4 million people (babies / fetuses / zygotes) died to achieve that number.

If every time you drove a car there was a 10 to 50% percent chance that a person ends up dead, you would not be allowed to drive a car.

Should people who think personhood starts at conception be in favor of criminalizing pregnancies? Or is it OK for millions of children to die as long as it results in an equal or greater number of live births?
You're suggesting that pro-life people should embrace the genocide of the entire human race because of the chance that a natural process may occur?

I mean... wow...
 
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ranunculus

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You're suggesting that pro-life people should embrace the genocide of the entire human race because of the chance that a natural process may occur?

I mean... wow...
Is it OK for millions of children to die as long as it results in an equal or greater number of live births?
 
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Mary Meg

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Your intentions matter. If every time a person got behind the wheel of a car, he intentionally tried to run over someone, no, he shouldn't be allowed to drive. But if his intention is to drive safely and protect himself and others, then that's ok — that's why we license drivers.

Nobody who conceives a child — whether intentionally or not — has the intention of causing the death of an innocent. If a zygote or very young fetus miscarries, through no fault or intention of the mother, then that's just something that happens — she is not at fault. God, in His wisdom, knows children who die, but the fact that they did naturally is no one's fault.

You know what? Everybody who is born, is going to die. Should we criminalize being born, because that's going to cause a death someday?
 
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HTacianas

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http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

The chance that a person is killed involuntarily is way too high. Let's take a conservative estimate and say the number is somewhere between 10% and 50%. In 2015 there were almost 4 million live births in the United States. That means that between 400,000 and 4 million people (babies / fetuses / zygotes) died to achieve that number.

If every time you drove a car there was a 10 to 50% percent chance that a person ends up dead, you would not be allowed to drive a car.

Should people who think personhood starts at conception be in favor of criminalizing pregnancies? Or is it OK for millions of children to die as long as it results in an equal or greater number of live births?

One hundred percent of all human conceptions end in death.
 
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Hank77

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http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

The chance that a person is killed involuntarily is way too high. Let's take a conservative estimate and say the number is somewhere between 10% and 50%. In 2015 there were almost 4 million live births in the United States. That means that between 400,000 and 4 million people (babies / fetuses / zygotes) died to achieve that number.

If every time you drove a car there was a 10 to 50% percent chance that a person ends up dead, you would not be allowed to drive a car.

Should people who think personhood starts at conception be in favor of criminalizing pregnancies? Or is it OK for millions of children to die as long as it results in an equal or greater number of live births?
What a strange argument you propose.
Pro-life isn't about numbers, it's asks the question 'Is it ethical and moral to allow a person to end the life of another person, even though that person is still in the womb?'
 
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MariaJLM

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This has to be one of the weakest pro-choice arguments I've ever seen. Previous posters have already addressed why and I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said.
 
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ranunculus

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Your intentions matter. If every time a person got behind the wheel of a car, he intentionally tried to run over someone, no, he shouldn't be allowed to drive. But if his intention is to drive safely and protect himself and others, then that's ok — that's why we license drivers.

Nobody who conceives a child — whether intentionally or not — has the intention of causing the death of an innocent. If a zygote or very young fetus miscarries, through no fault or intention of the mother, then that's just something that happens — she is not at fault. God, in His wisdom, knows children who die, but the fact that they did naturally is no one's fault.

I'm not talking about intentionally killing someone with a car, I'm talking about accidents. If half the time you drove a car, you accidentally killed someone, you would not be allowed to drive. Why is it allowed for getting pregnant?

And how do you know it was no one's fault without an inquest, an investigation into every failed pregnancy? Are you just going to take their word for it? How do you differentiate between a spontaneous miscarriage and a self induced miscarriage?

You know what? Everybody who is born, is going to die. Should we criminalize being born, because that's going to cause a death someday?

That can't be helped. But you can stop miscarriages by not getting pregnant.
 
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ranunculus

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What a strange argument you propose.
Pro-life isn't about numbers, it's asks the question 'Is it ethical and moral to allow a person to end the life of another person, even though that person is still in the womb?'
Depends. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
But why isn't it a numbers game? If a fetus is a person, then miscarriage is the number one health crisis in the world. The average lifespan of humans isn't 80, it's closer to 45 if that's the case. What's been done to stop them?

*edited to ask, 'Is it ethical and moral to allow a person to accidentally end the life of another person 50% of the time, even though that person is still in the womb?'
 
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ranunculus

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This has to be one of the weakest pro-choice arguments I've ever seen. Previous posters have already addressed why and I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said.
I'm just exposing the inconsistencies of the pro life rhetoric. Millions of children die in the womb and no one bats an eye.
 
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ranunculus

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Yes, I'm all in favor of jailing people whose pregnancies are abruptly ended (without their consent) due to natural processes beyond their control. /sarcasm
I was thinking we should jail the person who designed those natural processes.
 
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If one believes that full personhood in conferred at conception miscarriages would be the foremost issue that needs to be addressed. Abortion would not even be a priority as we are dealing with a disorder that kills the majority of people. That this is not even addressed by anti-abortion groups and individuals is one of many reasons that I don't believe that they believe what they claim to.
 
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Hank77

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*edited to ask, 'Is it ethical and moral to allow a person to accidentally end the life of another person 50% of the time, even though that person is still in the womb?'
imo, this argument is even more ridiculous.
 
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MariaJLM

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I'm just exposing the inconsistencies of the pro life rhetoric. Millions of children die in the womb and no one bats an eye.

The difference is that miscarriages are natural deaths that are occurring on their own. Abortions are not. It's the elective termination of a pregnancy.
 
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ranunculus

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I'll quote one of my previous posts if you want to know why I think it's practically impossible to grant personhood from conception.

First off, I believe that human life starts at conception. Because how could it not? I also think that it's impossible to regard that human life as a person for purely practical reasons. We don't live in a universe that allows us to do that.

"Up to 50 percent of all fertilized eggs are lost before a woman's missed menses."
Conception: How It Works

"Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant."
Miscarriage: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

"as many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage -- most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. About 15-25% of recognized pregnancies will end in a miscarriage."
http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/pregnancy-miscarriage

Now let's say we grant a fetus person-hood from conception, as many pro life supporters want. That would mean criminalizing both IVF and miscarriages. Picture this scenario.

If I were to ran over any person, child or adult, with my car in the mall parking lot, there would be an investigation. I would be tested for alcohol and drugs and if I were found to be at fault I would go to prison, most likely for involuntary manslaughter. (Correct me if I'm wrong about this)
Or consider this news story: Discovery of toddler's body in yard leads to couple's arrest
The fact that a child's body was found on the property was cause to make an arrest.

Now if we afford a fetus the same rights as that person who was run over in the mall parking lot, then every time a woman miscarries there would need to be an investigation into the cause. You can't just throw your hands up and say "well, it was probably an accident." Because that would be conceding that a fetus doesn't have the same rights as a person.
And how do you differentiate between a spontaneous abortion and a self induced abortion? (A self-induced abortion or self-induced miscarriage is an abortion performed by the pregnant woman herself outside the recognized medical system. )
You can't lock up every women who has had a miscarriage. That would leave almost the entire female population in prison and create a dystopian police state.
If you want to be consistent, there needs to be created a system were pregnancies have to be registered, and monitored with mandatory checkups of any blood loss by a doctor,...
But this would be practically impossible. Every pad, tampon would become a crime scene investigation. Most states don't even have enough resources to test rape kits. Thousands get thrown away untested. So how will they test every failed pregnancy?
Imagine a couple trying to conceive, they want to start a family. Statistically they have a high chance of killing a zygote that fails to implant as you can see from the statistics I mentioned. Do you want them to be the subject of a criminal investigation? If the answer is no then a zygote isn't a person.
And that's why I don't believe in granting person-hood starting from conception, from a practical standpoint.

A few additional points
If you believe God created this universe, you must also believe he made it so that it is impossible to regard a fetus as fully human.
For hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, God was apparently ok with a high death rate of children. The reason people had so many children in the past is because so many of them died. If you want the stats on that look here.
"A century ago every third child died before it was five years old"
Thanks to advancements medical science the mortality rate has been drastically reduced to something like less than 1%.

When abortion will finally be outlawed, it will be because medical science will advance far enough that a fetus can be made viable outside of a women's body in some kind of artificial womb, and not because of religious dogma or people screaming at women outside of a clinic.
 
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