Faith plus works

[redleghunter]

I don't know, but you apparently do, so why don't you tell me?

You are the Roman Catholic so please answer the question. Has the Catholic Magisterium infallibly interpreted every verse in the Sacred Scriptures? If not then Haydock is just another opinion on Scriptures your Church gives wide liberties in doing so.

 

[Erik Nelson]

1 John 2:3-4
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person

 

[Shimokita]

Simple, we are saved by grace, through faith to do works. However, "if [faith] is not accompanied by action, is dead." After all, "Even the demons believe [in Jesus] and shudder."

I believe the simple. Everyone who calls themselves "Christian" like to call Jesus their "Savior". But "Savior" is a title that describes something Jesus did, He Saves. However, "Lord" is a title of who Jesus is. Not every person who calls Jesus their "savior" will also quickly confess Jesus to be LORD in their lives. Salvation is a gift of grace that is given to us freely, however, it costs us everything. It means dying to self. If you believe in Jesus but refuse to submit to His Lordship, congratulations!, you are just a little worse than a demon. Because at least demons believe in Jesus and fear HIM. This is really an issue of people believing in "Cheap Grace" or "Easy Believism"

In the story about the Israelites and the Golden Calf, do you recall how the Israelites worshiped the calf. They weren't calling it Ba'al or Moloch. Rather, they were saying, "This is the God who led you out of Egypt!" Their sin was not simply worshiping another god. Their sin was reducing God into a manmade image of their own design. When we refuse to establish Jesus as Lord in our lives. We too are worshiping a "Golden Calf" Jesus of our own design rather than Jesus for who He really is. The Lord of all creation.

Pretty good, actually. I don't think I see anything here that I would object to, at least at first glance. Generally speaking I tend to understand "faith" in James 2 along the lines of "intellectual belief" as well.

 

[redleghunter]

1 John 2:3-4
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person

Yes quite sobering. He either knows us or He does not. The dichotomy is clear and truth.

 

[Shimokita]

You are the Roman Catholic so please answer the question. Has the Catholic Magisterium infallibly interpreted every verse in the Sacred Scriptures? If not then Haydock is just another opinion on Scriptures your Church gives wide liberties in doing so.

LOL. Why are you asking me questions that you already know the answer to? I am not playing that game, sorry.

 

[redleghunter]

LOL. Why are you asking me questions that you already know the answer to? I am not playing that game, sorry.

So the answer I guess is “no the Roman Catholic Church has not infallibly interpreted every verse of Sacred Scriptures.”

That is why we see a wide latitude of opinions among Catholics when we discuss Scriptures.

 

[Kenny'sID]

A works based salvation is one of the defining differences between Christianity and almost every other religion

Who here ever mentioned a works based salvation? That's a serious questions and hope you can answer it.

What do you mean by "works", is being good/obedient to God, works? Or do you mean helping people, like feeding the poor and such?

 

[Sketcher]

Well that depends. In your question, please clarify (i) "the instance" and (ii) "the rule".

You have not really set forth your argument in a clear manner, and I am not 100% sure what your argument is, to be frank.

The instance: Abraham sacrificing Issac.
The rule: Faith is made complete by works.

My argument is that Abraham's works - taking Issac to the altar and beginning to sacrifice him until God told him to stop - were motivated by faith, as also stated in Hebrews 11:17-19. Because faith motivated the works, the works demonstrated that the faith was complete. If he didn't go as far as he did, it would have demonstrated a failing of his faith, it would have stopped short of where it needed to be. Either way, the faith is the rightful centerpiece here, since the works demonstrate the quality, and even the existence, of the faith. This therefore does no harm to the doctrine of "salvation by faith alone" when it is understood properly. (Interestingly enough, the example of the thief on the cross who confessed Christ, and is frequently used by Catholics as an example of valid "baptism by desire" since he literally could not do works, supports "salvation by faith alone").

 

[Shimokita]

So the answer I guess is “no the Roman Catholic Church has not infallibly interpreted every verse of Sacred Scriptures.”

That is why we see a wide latitude of opinions among Catholics when we discuss Scriptures.

Who cares?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Yes quite sobering. He either knows us or He does not. The dichotomy is clear and truth.

James 2:17 obviously also

 

[redleghunter]

Who cares?

I think Catholics should care their One True Church 2000 years and counting had not got around to interpreting the very texts they claim give them authority.

 

[redleghunter]

James 2:17 obviously also

The whole book of James.

One is either born of the Spirit or not. I think James is quite clear on this.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Who here ever mentioned a works based salvation? That's a serious questions and hope you can answer it.

What do you mean by "works", is being good/obedient to God, works? Or do you mean helping people, like feeding the poor and such?

True saving Faith begets works worthy of faith.

As Jesus Christ said on Earth. Judge a tree by its fruits. Good trees always bear good fruits.

Luke 6:43-45, Matthew 7:16

 

[anna ~ grace]

This is the Baltimore Catechism ;

Lesson Tenth and Lesson Twenty Ninth might be helpful here!

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/14552/pg14552-images.html

 

[Shimokita]

The instance: Abraham sacrificing Issac.
The rule: Faith is made complete by works.

My argument is that Abraham's works - taking Issac to the altar and beginning to sacrifice him until God told him to stop - were motivated by faith, as also stated in Hebrews 11:17-19. Because faith motivated the works, the works demonstrated that the faith was complete. If he didn't go as far as he did, it would have demonstrated a failing of his faith, it would have stopped short of where it needed to be. Either way, the faith is the rightful centerpiece here, since the works demonstrate the quality, and even the existence, of the faith. This therefore does no harm to the doctrine of "salvation by faith alone" when it is understood properly. (Interestingly enough, the example of the thief on the cross who confessed Christ, and is frequently used by Catholics as an example of valid "baptism by desire" since he literally could not do works, supports "salvation by faith alone").

Thanks. It's a little late so I'll try to get back to you this week. I have a few objections to the "demonstrate your faith" view but they are probably the common ones that you have heard before.

As for the Catholic view, again, it is not actually "salvation is faith plus works" so the inability of a person to do good works presents no problems to Catholic theology (a baptized Christian who dies in a state of grace (i.e., not having committed a mortal sin) goes to heaven).

Regardless, the logic of what you wrote fails in any event because (faith - works) does not equate to "faith alone". "Faith alone" would exclude love, for example, and I do not think that anyone would say that the thief on the cross would have gone to heaven if he did not love the Lord.

 

[Soyeong]

Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what being saved from living in transgression of God's Law looks like. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, so we are not saved by our obedience to God's Law, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only doers of the Law who will be justified. In Titus 2:1-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so participating in this trained by grace is not about trying to add our own works to earn our salvation, but rather this is again what our salvation from living in transgression of God's Law looks like.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, so obedience to God has always been about expressing our faith in God to guide us and our love for Him and thereby growing in a relationship with Him, and has never been about trying to earn something through our own works.

 

[Shimokita]

I think Catholics should care their One True Church 2000 years and counting had not got around to interpreting the very texts they claim give them authority.

Friend, the Catholic Church derives her authority from our Lord Jesus, not from any particular verse of Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church existed before the first book of the New Testament was ever written.

As for what you think Catholics should care about, that is very nice, but I am not particularly concerned with your opinion on the matter, nor did I ask for it. I will let you know when that changes, thank you.

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

Luther was excommunicated from an Apostate New Testament church. He, Luther, and many many others were appalled by the numerous false doctrines, such as the papacy, indulgences, the sinless virgin Mary and praying to the martyrs and multiple others. Just because Luther left a church in error doesn't, by any means, make him right.
Believing and obeying God does in NO WAY EVER constitute a "works" based salvation.
When we are told by His inspired word that we must be baptized to be saved He meant just that.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
No one here, or on Earth has the mind of God to say He didn't mean exactly what He said.
No one here, or on Earth, has the authority to ignore or make null and void even one syllable He spoke. Man does not have it within him to please God without His guidance.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:21
Being obedient to God is imperative to pleasing Him; it was that way in the Garden of Eden and it is the same today.
In Him

 

[anna ~ grace]

Luther was excommunicated from an Apostate New Testament church. He, Luther, and many many others were appalled by the numerous false doctrines, such as the papacy, indulgences, the sinless virgin Mary and praying to the martyrs and multiple others. Just because Luther left a church in error doesn't, by any means, make him right.
Believing and obeying God does in NO WAY EVER constitute a "works" based salvation.
When we are told by His inspired word that we must be baptized to be saved He meant just that.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
No one here, or on Earth has the mind of God to say He didn't mean exactly what He said.
No one here, or on Earth, has the authority to ignore or make null and void even one syllable He spoke. Man does not have it within him to please God without His guidance.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:21
Being obedient to God is imperative to pleasing Him; it was that way in the Garden of Eden and it is the same today.
In Him

Hmm. So, would you say that you are a non-Catholic Christian who believes that works play a role in our salvation?

 

[Shimokita]

Luther was excommunicated from an Apostate New Testament church. He, Luther, and many many others were appalled by the numerous false doctrines, such as the papacy, indulgences, the sinless virgin Mary and praying to the martyrs and multiple others. Just because Luther left a church in error doesn't, by any means, make him right.
Believing and obeying God does in NO WAY EVER constitute a "works" based salvation.
When we are told by His inspired word that we must be baptized to be saved He meant just that.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
No one here, or on Earth has the mind of God to say He didn't mean exactly what He said.
No one here, or on Earth, has the authority to ignore or make null and void even one syllable He spoke. Man does not have it within him to please God without His guidance.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:21
Being obedient to God is imperative to pleasing Him; it was that way in the Garden of Eden and it is the same today.
In Him

What church do you go to, friend?

 

[Just_a_Christian]

Friend, the Catholic Church derives her authority from our Lord Jesus, not from any particular verse of Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church existed before the first book of the New Testament was ever written.

As for what you think Catholics should care about, that is very nice, but I am not particularly concerned with your opinion on the matter, nor did I ask for it. I will let you know when that changes, thank you.

Correction:
The "catholic" church did not exist before the books of the New Testament were written. The church Christ built was not the catholic church, it was His church. His church was very different from what Catholicism was and is. Maybe the catholic church was here when the New Testament was canonized BUT not before the books were written. HUGE, HUGE difference.
In Him