Biblical Timeline leading up to the end

[Erik Nelson]

“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Matthew 12:28)

Those words were spoken in the first century. It gets (got) even better in the Millennium.

 

[Erik Nelson]

There is no millennium. Jesus never taught it. His kingdom is spiritual and eternal. Try to find one mention of a physical kingdom in the gospels or epistles. You are importing the pharisaic understanding of the kingdom and not Jesus' teaching about it into Revelation.

Who do you think spoke to and through Saint John the Apostle in Revelation?

Even if Jesus didn't mention the Millennium during his live ministry on EARTH. He himself explicitly mentioned it in his revelation to John from God's throne room in HEAVEN.

I'm afraid we're dismissing revelation 2 lightly. Revelation is scripture 2. It says Millennium. And so a Millennium must be part of our philosophy.

 

[parousia70]

Yes, because that is what Scripture says is to take place.

Scripture says unrepentant sinners will enjoy a life of victory over satan In The messianic age?

 

[Lewalix]

There is no temporary physical kingdom planned for this world. The kingdom arrived with Jesus at his first coming Luke 11:20. It is spiritual Luke 17:21, and flesh and blood cannot inherit it 1 Corinthians 15:50. It is a kingdom only the born again can see John 3:3. It is a kingdom of faith and cannot be a kingdom of sight 2 Corinthians 5:7 as millennial theories claim Luke 17:20.

The great Tribulation was Jewish only and happened as foretold by Jesus in 70 AD. By destroying the temple and Jerusalem Matthew 24:ff. Jesus told his disciples, “when you see” all of this, spoken in the second person plural, meaning those in his present audience, leave Jerusalem. This they did according to history.

Tribulation is the normal lot of all Christians between the first and Second Advent Acts 14:22.

Nothing remains unfulfilled before Christ returns*. It will be as in Noah’s day, much like today where people marry and are given in marriage Matthew 24:36–39.

On the last day Christ returns followed by the resurrection of the Just John 6:39. Followed by the Rapture 1 Corinthians 15:51–53. Accompanied by the resurrection of the damned and their judgment John 5:29. Accompanied by the destruction of the universe by fire, followed by the creation of the New Heavens and Earth 2 Peter 3:10–13. Where believers of all-time meet and live in the house of the Lord forever Psalm 23:6.

*Many look for the symbols of Revelation to literally appear in the future. But if we look for what the symbols represent, we can see Revelation’s predictions fulfilled time and again throughout history.

The tribulation happens just before Christ’s second coming. It is The last generation in this world That will see this happen, I believe that we could be this generation.

 

[Dave L]

The tribulation happens just before Christ’s second coming. It is The last generation in this world That will see this happen, I believe that we could be this generation.

It will be as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. The great tribulation was Jewish and happened in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Dave L]

Who do you think spoke to and through Saint John the Apostle in Revelation?

Even if Jesus didn't mention the Millennium during his live ministry on EARTH. He himself explicitly mentioned it in his revelation to John from God's throne room in HEAVEN.

I'm afraid we're dismissing revelation 2 lightly. Revelation is scripture 2. It says Millennium. And so a Millennium must be part of our philosophy.

You need to balance Revelation against the clear claims of scripture in the gospels and epistles.

 

[Dave L]

Those words were spoken in the first century. It gets (got) even better in the Millennium.

The 1000 years are not the eternal kingdom. The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Satan attacks the eternal kingdom when the 1000 years end.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The 1000 years are not the eternal kingdom. The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Satan attacks the eternal kingdom when the 1000 years end.

all technically true statements

The tribulation happens just before Christ’s second coming. It is The last generation in this world That will see this happen, I believe that we could be this generation.

almost! Christ came in power on the clouds of heaven, visibly exalted to the right hand of God in 70ad... The cataclysmic end of the Old Covenant Age And the beginning of the New Covenant Age.

The "destruction of Heaven and earth" and the re formation of a new heaven and New Earth is typical eschatological hyperbolic exaggerated language

It will be as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. The great tribulation was Jewish and happened in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.

both true statements, both applicable to 70ad

You need to balance Revelation against the clear claims of scripture in the gospels and epistles.

they don't conflict, they all present a self consistent mutually consistent message

 

[Dave L]

all technically true statements


almost! Christ came in power on the clouds of heaven, visibly exalted to the right hand of God in 70ad... The cataclysmic end of the Old Covenant Age And the beginning of the New Covenant Age.

The "destruction of Heaven and earth" and the re formation of a new heaven and New Earth is typical eschatological hyperbolic exaggerated language

both true statements, both applicable to 70ad

they don't conflict, they all present a self consistent mutually consistent message

The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.

 

[parousia70]

In Revelations, Christ told first century churches that He was "coming quickly", does that mean the return of Christ took place in the first century?

That is EXACTLY what that means.

How could Jesus Christ have promised those literal, first-century Asia Minor churches that he would perform all those things at his coming to them, and then not do it?

That's certainly not a literal interpretation, nor a biblical one.

Christ indeed came to those Churches, and we have the documentation of it in the scriptures. There can be no question that Jesus came to them.

The disciples of Christ themselves also fell into this same misunderstanding, more than once they interpreted the teachings of Christ to mean that the kingdom would appear immediately, did it?
It is problematic...

What is problematic is building your doctrine on a foundation that relies upon apostolic error.
To rest your view on the notion that the apostles were WRONG and in turn taught their flocks WRONG information regarding the timing of these things is untenable.
If they could have been so wrong about something so crucial, and your view DEPENDS on them BEING WRONG AND TEACHING THIS ERROR, how can we be sure they were correct about the doctrines of Grace, or Salvation, or anything?

We can’t.
Our belief rests on the fact that Jesus and the apostles were wholly and fully correct in ALL their teaching, including the “WHEN” it was to be fulfilled.

We can see from scripture that Christ's return affected various then-contemporary situations. We can read of specific situations in Rev 2-3 and elsewhere.

Let's look at Thessalonica for a moment. Jesus returned and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thess 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the return of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

So we see that it was their contemporary situation that was directly changed by the return of Christ. It was changed in exactly the same way as other scenarios we read about in Revelation 2-3, where unique contemporary situations were addressed by Christ's return to them. (For comparison, see Christ's then-contemporary destruction of the Thyatiran prophetess movement via his coming - Rev 2:20-25. Christ indeed returned to those Churches, and we have the documentation of it in the scriptures. There can be no question that Jesus returned to them.)

Not just promises of relief...but, in every case, the prescribed relief is said to come via the return of Christ to them to accomplish those things. We therefore have only two choices:

(1) either Christ returned and delivered on those promises to the first-century churches, or...

(2) He did not come again, thus failing to fulfill the promises He made to them, and thus making St. John a false prophet

Which choice do you prefer?

Before you answer, think long and hard about the implications of option No. 2. Christ made specific promises to those churches of Asia Minor, and these were given to them by an apostle under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. IMHO, option number two spells the end of Christianity as the true, holy, and reliable revelation of God to mankind.

What is your answer?

 

[Erik Nelson]

The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.

if there is a kind of "double fulfillment"

the tribulation of the terrible war of 70ad came as a venomous flood = revelation 12:15-16 ?

 

[Douggg]

so...

Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.

Revelation 13:1
The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name

so we are talking about 2 different. Adversaries.

One is the DRAGON symbolizing the devil. The Serpent from the garden of Eden.

The other is the BEAST. Which is symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire?

The BEAST OF REVELATION. Matches up with the FOURTH BEAST OF DANIEL. The 10th horn of the BEAST causes the abomination of Desolation. In the destruction of the physical temple during the 70th week.

The Dragon, although superficially similar. Is new to Revelation? The dragon is chained during the Millennium? And freed afterwards. To be again, the "power behind the throne". But this time, not of the fourth beast Daniel= Pagan Roman Empire...

but "Gog and Magog" of Ezekiel 38-9 = global cabal of ???

So I want to focus my remarks on the beast. Not the dragon. The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. And the 10 horns with 10 crowns. Symbolizes the first 10 emperors of Rome. Julius Caesar through Vespasian, who exactly as prophecy? Defeated 3 rival emperor claimants. And. Razed the temple of Jerusalem.

So I want to focus my remarks on the beast. Not the dragon. The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. And the 10 horns with 10 crowns. Symbolizes the first 10 emperors of Rome. Julius Caesar through Vespasian, who exactly as prophecy? Defeated 3 rival emperor claimants. And. Razed the temple of Jerusalem.

The ten horns whether in Revelation 13, 12 or 17 are the same ten kings.

In Revelation 17, which explains the ten horns are ten kings (Revelation 17:13), the ten horns do not have crowns in Revelation 17:3. They had not come to power, at the time of the 6th head king.

In Revelation 13, the ten horns have crowns., with 42 months left in the seven years, Revelation 13:5.

The ten kings rule concurrently with each other and with the beast person. Julius Caesar through Vespasion are sequential kings. And cannot be the tens kings.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The beast is Revelation 13 is also a person (as well as a kingdom). For does it makes sense to say (speaking of the ten kings giving their kingdom to the beast) ....


17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (the Pagan Roman Empire), until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

or

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (the 8th king), until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

_________________________________________________________________________________

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

_______________________________________________________________________________

The seven kings, the sequential kings are:

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. End times little horn person (descended from the Julio Claudians, above)

They are sequential with each other, only because they are of the same family, the Julio-Claudians.
_________________________________________________________________________________

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Erik, you have to go to Revelation 17:8a to know what it is talking about. The beast that was and is not, it talking about an unclean spirit of some person who was living, but dead at the time of John. And is in the bottomless pit.

In Revelation 17b, it is talking about the end times person, who the world will witness being killed and coming back alive. The beast, the unclean spirit will come out of the bottomless pit and possess that person. It is not until there 42 months left in the seven years.

It is difficult to understand I know because it is actually referring to two persons as the beast in Revelation 17:8, not one.

In Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, Satan is seen, the power behind the beast. Because at the time of the first century (Revelation 17) and at the beginning of the 7 years (Revelation 12) the unclean spirit is still in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 17 - first century, the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit

Revelation 12 *- end times verses 12:6 + 12:4, the 7 years - the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit

Revelation 13 - end times, last 42 months of the 7 years - the unclean spirit has ascended out of the bottomless pit.

*Erik, regarding Revelation 12, the seven years, I would invite to read in Jason's thread on his chronology. I explain Revelation 12, why it is about Israel in the 7 years. And he got it....

start with my post #79, then Jason's post #80, then my post #81
Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

 

[Dave L]

if there is a kind of "double fulfillment"

the tribulation of the terrible war of 70ad came as a venomous flood = revelation 12:15-16 ?

No, Jesus said it was the worst ever never to be repeated.

 

[Douggg]

It will be as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. The great tribulation was Jewish and happened in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Dave, how could have anything that happened in 70 AD could have resulted in all of life on earth be made extinct?

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.

False.
The great tribulation has not passed.
How could you or anyone possibly say that?
I really am interested in how you believe that.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The ten horns whether in Revelation 13, 12 or 17 are the same ten kings.

In Revelation 17, which explains the ten horns are ten kings (Revelation 17:13), the ten horns do not have crowns in Revelation 17:3. They had not come to power, at the time of the 6th head king.

In Revelation 13, the ten horns have crowns., with 42 months left in the seven years, Revelation 13:5.

The ten kings rule concurrently with each other and with the beast person. Julius Caesar through Vespasion are sequential kings. And cannot be the tens kings.

_________________________________________________________________________________

The beast is Revelation 13 is also a person (as well as a kingdom). For does it makes sense to say (speaking of the ten kings giving their kingdom to the beast) ....


17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (the Pagan Roman Empire), until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

or

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (the 8th king), until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

_________________________________________________________________________________

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

_______________________________________________________________________________

The seven kings, the sequential kings are:

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. End times little horn person (descended from the Julio Claudians, above)

They are sequential with each other, only because they are of the same family, the Julio-Claudians.
_________________________________________________________________________________

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Erik, you have to go to Revelation 17:8a to know what it is talking about. The beast that was and is not, it talking about an unclean spirit of some person who was living, but dead at the time of John. And is in the bottomless pit.

In Revelation 17b, it is talking about the end times person, who the world will witness being killed and coming back alive. The beast, the unclean spirit will come out of the bottomless pit and possess that person. It is not until there 42 months left in the seven years.

It is difficult to understand I know because it is actually referring to two persons as the beast in Revelation 17:8, not one.

In Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, Satan is seen, the power behind the beast. Because at the time of the first century (Revelation 17) and at the beginning of the 7 years (Revelation 12) the unclean spirit is still in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 17 - first century, the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit

Revelation 12 *- end times verses 12:6 + 12:4, the 7 years - the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit

Revelation 13 - end times, last 42 months of the 7 years - the unclean spirit has ascended out of the bottomless pit.

*Erik, regarding Revelation 12, the seven years, I would invite to read in Jason's thread on his chronology. I explain Revelation 12, why it is about Israel in the 7 years. And he got it....

start with my post #79, then Jason's post #80, then my post #81
Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

Well, first of all the dragon is not the beast. I superficial resemblance is surely significant perhaps implying that the dragon so motivates and inspires and empowers the beast that the beast comes to resemble the dragon in detail.

But the dragon is not the beast and the actions and anatomical features of the dragon do not reflect directly on the beast. They have no direct relevance to the beast.

Also, while revelation 17 does not have the noun crowns. You cannot make an argument from silence. Revelation 13 describes the beast, Matt says the 10 horns have 10 Crowns Revelation 17 summarises revelation 13 just to bring it back to memory. It doesn't explicitly detail every single anatomical feature but that doesn't mean that any of those anatomical features are lacking or have otherwise changed.

But we should expect it to. Revelation shouldn't have to repeat itself over and over again. It references debiste at its key features. Just to be completely sure everyone knows what the author is talking about. But in argument from silence. Makes no sense. Did the beast suddenly lose its leopard body and Lions paws and so on of course not, neither did it lose its horns or crowds.

 

[Erik Nelson]

False.
The great tribulation has not passed.
How could you or anyone possibly say that?
I really am interested in how you believe that.

Jesus Christ himself explicitly tied the tribulation to the 70th week of Daniel, which involves and prophecies. The destruction of physical Jerusalem and its physical temple. That was accomplished in spades in 70 AD.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Dave, how could have anything that happened in 70 AD could have resulted in all of life on earth be made extinct?

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24, is unambiguously discussing the destruction of the physical temple of Jerusalem. In physical Jerusalem.

That of course occured in the year 70. AD.

The context is not all humanity on all of Earth, but very focused to first century Jerusalem and its temple.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.

Well, the straightforward plain reading of the text would associate the days of Noah with the tribulation. There is no obvious break there is no obvious reason to insert a 2000 year gap between one verse and the next.

The most natural straightforward reading would imply that is all discussing the same event.

 

[Douggg]

Well, first of all the dragon is not the beast. I superficial resemblance is surely significant perhaps implying that the dragon so motivates and inspires and empowers the beast that the beast comes to resemble the dragon in detail.

Hi Erik

I agree that the dragon, Satan, is not the beast. The reason though that the beast is not pictured in Revelation 12:3 in the introductory to Revelation 12, is of course it was Satan who lead the rebellion in heaven with a third of the angels.

But that is not the whole reason, the beast in not pictured in Revelation 12:3. It is because Revelation 12 contains the 7 years in the rest of text, about Israel (the woman) going through those 7 years.

And at the start of the seven years, the beast is still in the bottomless pit waiting to come out.

So the ten horns do not have crowns in Revelation 12 because the person is not the beast yet, at the beginning of the 7 years. The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13 because the person has become the beast, that the ten kings rule with him

But the dragon is not the beast and the actions and anatomical features of the dragon do not reflect directly on the beast. They have no direct relevance to the beast.

It has everything to do with the end times arch villain not being the beast at the beginning of the 7 years.

At the beginning of the 7 years, the end times arch villain will have become the little horn. Which by becoming the little horn - leader of the EU - he will have become the 7th king of the prophesied 7 king in Revelation 17:10. Which is why the heads have their crowns in Revelation 12.

Also, while revelation 17 does not have the noun crowns. You cannot make an argument from silence. Revelation 13 describes the beast, Matt says the 10 horns have 10 Crowns Revelation 17 summarises revelation 13 just to bring it back to memory. It doesn't explicitly detail every single anatomical feature but that doesn't mean that any of those anatomical features are lacking or have otherwise changed.

I think I can because Revelation 12 and Revelation 13, have both crowns and no crowns, but in reverse fashion. So unless it says crowns, there are no crowns.

I am assuming you are talking about Matthew Henry? If so, he was very wrong in his explanation. In fact, I have never heard a single bible commentator explain the crowns/no crowns as being because of the different timestamps of Revelation 12, 13, 17.

But we should expect it to. Revelation shouldn't have to repeat itself over and over again. It references debiste at its key features. Just to be completely sure everyone knows what the author is talking about. But in argument from silence. Makes no sense. Did the beast suddenly lose its leopard body and Lions paws and so on of course not, neither did it lose its horns or crowds.

Revelation is not repeating itself. It is making distinctions between Revelation 12, 13, 17.

The beast appearance coming out of the sea in Revelation 13:1-3 of the composite body - is a one time representation of the beast as a kingdom.

In the other parts of Revelation the beast is not a kingdom.