Is a Born Again Christian a "sinner"?

[ViaCrucis]

Why shouldn't we think of holiness as a moral quality?

I am reckoned holy, a saint, because Christ is holy, not because I am holy. I am most certainly not holy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tree of Life]

The term "saint" doesn't mean you don't sin, but the term "sinner" in Scripture refers to someone who remains at enmity with God.

I don't believe this is always the case. Paul calls himself the chief of sinners in the present tense. The publican in the temple says: "God have mercy on me, a sinner".

 

[Tree of Life]

I am reckoned holy, a saint, because Christ is holy, not because I am holy. I am most certainly not holy.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, yes, but isn't this because Christ's holiness is imputed to our account? If so, I don't see why this is opposed to holiness describing a moral quality.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The term "saint" doesn't mean you don't sin, but the term "sinner" in Scripture refers to someone who remains at enmity with God.

"Christ came to save sinners, and I am the chief of sinners." The Apostle does not say "I was the chief of sinners", but "I am the chief of sinners"; it is present tense.

Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς ἦλθεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἁμαρτωλοὺς σῶσαι ὧν πρῶτός εἰμι ἐγώ
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of which I am foremost.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, yes, but isn't this because Christ's holiness is imputed to our account? If so, I don't see why this is opposed to holiness describing a moral quality.

Yes, by imputation. The problem is in thinking that our actions or inactions play a role in this; as though holiness were a moral quality we attain through thought, word, or deed. It's not about my morality, it's about God's grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes, by imputation. The problem is in thinking that our actions or inactions play a role in this; as though holiness were a moral quality we attain through thought, word, or deed. It's not about my morality, it's about God's grace.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree that our legal status before God is based on Christ's holiness and righteousness alone. But his holiness is a moral quality that he has. And the Bible also teaches that God does transform us throughout life to become more existentially holy. Our holiness will always be imperfect and we are not judged on the basis of our holiness. But this does not mean that holiness is not a moral quality.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I am a child of God !

The nice thing about the NT is that it is very positive. Why remind yourself of what you used to be?
Keep affirming those negtive statements and you'll begin to feel like a sinner & act like a sinner.

 

[Jonaitis]

I don't believe this is always the case. Paul calls himself the chief of sinners in the present tense. The publican in the temple says: "God have mercy on me, a sinner".

But this is generally the case.

Btw, Penal Atonement is the Gospel.

 

[Tree of Life]

But this is generally the case.

It may be. But because it's not always the case, it is not wrong to think of ourselves as sinners.

Btw, Penal Atonement is the Gospel.

I agree. But I thought you had said that one who denies PSA is not a Christian. That's a bit stronger.

 

[Jonaitis]

It may be. But because it's not always the case, it is not wrong to think of ourselves as sinners.

I believe it does good to make a distinction between saint and sinner as we read in Scripture that distinction.

I agree. But I thought you had said that one who denies PSA is not a Christian. That's a bit stronger.

If PSA is the gospel, then you aren't a Christian if you deny it. I question your profession with such a statement.

 

[com7fy8]

But what do you think? Should we as Born Again Christians call ourselves "Sinners" or "Saints"?

In 1 John 3:1, God's word says we are "called children of God".

Our identity is that we are God's children, if we "first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12).

People are either Satan's children, or God's children. This is where our first and basic identity is.

Also, our Apostle Paul calls Christians "saints", in various of Paul's messages. I think the term "saint" means how we have been adopted by God so we have been removed from and are separate from Satan and his kingdom. We are holy, by status, simply by being in God's kingdom. But then we still need more and more correction to be like Jesus. This brings us more and more into how God's love makes our nature holy > 1 John 4:17-18, Galatians 4:19.

So, while we still are not perfectly like Jesus, yes we do give in to sinning. But as we grow we discover a deeper meaning to what sinning is. We learn how we need correction more and more from arguing, complaining, unforgiveness, and not only from no-no's of forbidden pleasures and violences.

So, our identity is not "sinner". It might be like to how your identity is not a "cook" if all you do is fry some eggs for breakfast and then eat out for the rest of the day. Likewise, the fact that we do commit sins alone does not make us identified as sinners.

What matters is if we are getting effective correction of God changing us to become more and more like Jesus and so we are relating in love the way the Bible says to relate > Ephesians 5:21, Ephesians 4:31-32, Ephesians 5:2. And this comes with being a child of God. A child grows and matures in how to relate in God's love, if he or she is a child of God.

 

[Tree of Life]

I believe it does good to make a distinction between saint and sinner as we read in Scripture that distinction.

I have no problem with distinguishing those two concepts.

If PSA is the gospel, then you aren't a Christian if you deny it. I question your profession with such a statement.

You question whether or not I am a Christian because I'm not sure that people who deny PSA are unsaved?

 

[FireDragon76]

Why shouldn't we think of holiness as a moral quality?

Holiness is more of a cultic concept, it means something set apart.

 

[Jonaitis]

I have no problem with distinguishing those two concepts.

Let's leave it that way, my suggestion.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't believe this is always the case. Paul calls himself the chief of sinners in the present tense. The publican in the temple says: "God have mercy on me, a sinner".

God only saves sinners, as Luther told Philip Melanchthon.

 

[Tree of Life]

Holiness is more of a cultic concept, it means something set apart.

I do believe that holy things are set apart, but I don't believe this is an adequate definition of holiness. God is holy and has always been holy - even before creation. But before creation, how could God have been holy if He alone existed?

A better definition of holiness is: "devoted to God". This includes both cultic and moral dimensions.

 

[Tree of Life]

Let's leave it that way, my suggestion.

Distinguishing is fine, but I think this will make problems for you if you can't recognize yourself as a sinner.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do believe that holy things are set apart, but I don't believe this is an adequate definition of holiness. God is holy and has always been holy - even before creation. But before creation, how could God have been holy if He alone existed?

God never existed alone, obviously. The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't imply that in God's nature.

 

[Tree of Life]

God never existed alone, obviously. The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't imply that kind of lack in God's nature.

Yes I agree. But the Trinity was once the only thing that existed. How could the Triune God be Holy if the Trinity alone exists?

 

[Jonaitis]

Distinguishing is fine, but I think this will make problems for you if you can't recognize yourself as a sinner.

Like what?