Saints who Protect

[bèlla]

Satan has deceived people to believe that these "spirit guides" and other entities, are righteous.. when they are evil.

This is true. My friends were led to that belief by someone and the aftermath was grave. They were wholly captive by four spirits and their lives were never the same. I remember their vibrancy and lament what they became.

I also believe that many mental illnesses are actually demonic in nature.

This is true. There's a spirit of schizophrenia and it is the ruler for most mental ailments. But many spiritual strongholds find their root in rejection. It is the most dangerous of the bunch and the door for many of our calamities.

I have read a bit about the "Spirit of Jezebel" and it is scary.

Jezebel is generally found in places of worship, pastoral, and teaching ministries. It creates factions and power struggles with the intent of destruction and the cessation of the spiritual flow in the group/person. It speaks with a forked tongue and those who are under its sway usually appear harmless and captivate their audience. Although most think of women when it's mentioned a man can be under its influence. Control is its goal.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

I've read through this entire thread - and I've got a lot of different quotes (from a variety of people) here.

Couple of things / questions pop out at me.

What is the Scriptural definition of "communion" of those who are in body as opposed to those who are not? Is the Scripture clear about a distinction between the two?

When believers pass from this earth into eternity; is it Scriptural to believe they take on attributes of God such as omnipresence?



How do we know this is true? All prayers (even pagans) are heard by God; and technically we can say all prayers are answered (yes, no and wait). How do we know though of what those in heaven pray for, other than what is stated in Revelation.



Good point! Are there any other Scriptures that tell us what those in heaven pray for?





I find your experience here intriguing. And though I'm not the kind of person who sees ghosts, demons or angels around every corner. There's an aspect of your experience here I can relate to.

I was in a catastrophic car accident in 2010 and I don't know if this was a dream, a "real" experience of the soul, or a result of being on massive doses of painkillers. LOL I don't know when in the sequences of my consciousness or unconsciousness this happened? I'd lost consciousness on several occasions. The first time was upon the impact of the accident. The second time was in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. Also, I do not recollect most of the rest of that day. I was in the ICU for about 24 hours and I periodically remember waking up screaming in pain. Another "odd" thing happened, that I know was not real; which looking back at it was actually rather comical.

I'll tell you both stories. Contextually, it's important to know that this accident happened on Easter Sunday.

Incident #1 - I remember being in this dark space and wondering: am I dead? And in front of me the darkness ripped open and I saw a male figure standing on the other side of this veil of darkness. I could not see the face because there was so much light coming from behind this figure. The first thought that popped into my head was: Oh, It's Jesus! and I got all happy and started running toward him and just before I got to 'the end of the darkness'. The the figure pointed behind me and said: "No, go back, your son needs you." The next thing I remember was hospital equipment beeping and medical personnel doing something to me. Then I passed out again.

Incident #2 - (This one is funny and I didn't remember it until months later and when I got my medical records from the lawyer after the settlement, the verbal exchange I had with the staff and what they did as a result was in the medical record. So I know the conversation was real.)

I was calling for someone and a staff came into the room. I kept asking her: "Where'd he go?" She couldn't understand me, so she called a nurse and they are both standing there while I'm asking: "Where'd he go? Tell him to come back here." One asks the other "Where'd who go?" and the other said "You're husband is on the 7th floor." I said: "No, no, I know where he is." Then she said: "Your son is on the 4th floor." And I said: "That's probably where he went. He went to see (son's name). Tell the people on ped's to send him back when he's done." Then the staff person says to the nurse: "Who's she talking about?" And I said: "Jesus." And the staff said: "Jesus who?" And I said: "Jesus Christ! The guy who rose from the dead. It's Easter Sunday. What's the matter with you people!" There're both just looking at me and then at each other. Then the nurse said to the staff person: "The doctors think she has a head injury." (LOL - which was true - I did.) So for lack of knowing what else to do, they called a chaplain.

Now I don't remember talking to the chaplain that night, but I do remember him coming to see me the next day when I went in for surgery on my leg. I was conscious and remember that conversation. He asked me if I remembered talking to him the night before? I said "no" and he laughed and said: "Well that's probably a good thing."

So, moral of the story is; just because we think something is real, doesn't mean that it is real, or that it is what we think it is. I was thoroughly convinced that night that Jesus Christ was walking around Strong Memorial Hospital, but I'm pretty sure that belief was a byproduct of my either my mental state at the time, massive doses of pain killers, or both. LOL

The first incident? Was that a dream? Is there such thing as "near death experience"? I don't know? I did look in the medical records to see if I had been resuscitated? When I do remember waking out of the first surgery; (they had to put my face back together I'd been cut up pretty bad by flying glass. I also lost one eye). I remember my chest hurt really bad, and I thought my back was broken. (It wasn't.) There was no record that they'd resuscitated me either before or during surgery, but in the course of the surgery, would they have recorded that or not? The only thing that was written about the surgery basically was what the injuries were and the post operative antibiotics they prescribed.



So yes, in the light of my experiences as well as other's I've heard / spoken to, or who've responded to this thread. You raise a very valid question here!

I like the question..."Good point! Are there any other Scriptures that tell us what those in heaven pray for?"...makes me think...how do we hold the dead accountable? How do we know if their prayers are answered? Where scripurally does it say we are to prayer to or with those saints? Accounability and fruit is a necessity.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

This is true. My friends were led to that belief by someone and the aftermath was grave. They were wholly captive by four spirits and their lives were never the same. I remember their vibrancy and lament what they became.



This is true. There's a spirit of schizophrenia and it is the ruler for most mental ailments. But many spiritual strongholds find their root in rejection. It is the most dangerous of the bunch and the door for many of our calamities.



Jezebel is generally found in places of worship, pastoral, and teaching ministries. It creates factions and power struggles with the intent of destruction and the cessation of the spiritual flow in the group/person. It speaks with a forked tongue and those who are under its sway usually appear harmless and captivate their audience. Although most think of women when it's mentioned a man can be under its influence. Control is its goal.

Mental illness can be physical, spiritual or a combo.

I have a combo.

 

[The Righterzpen]

God's saints are, by His grace, full of His Love that He has for all of us, and they pray for our salvation whether we know it or not (i.e. are ignorant of the reality of their doing it), and whether we believe it or not (i.e. refuse to accept it as true). If you are overflowing in each of these blessings, as you say, then it could well be that God has answered their prayers for you.

Overflowing with Godly blessings would also mean "overflowing with Godly humility" (Galatians 5:22-23), which would cause us not to credit ourselves and our own prayers, or to have such high regard for ourselves and our prayers, as to discredit the power of the prayers of the righteous (James 5:16)

Where does it say in Scripture that deceased saints pray for our salvation? ".... God answered their prayers for you." Why would He not answer one's own prayers for their own salvation?

Isaiah 8:18-20 (note the differences in translations)

King James Version
18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1599 Geneva Bible:
18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me, are as signs and as wonders in Israel, by the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in Mount Zion.

19 And when they shall say unto you, Inquire at them that have a spirit of divination, and at the soothsayers which whisper and murmur, Should not a people inquire at their God? from the living to the dead?

20 To the Law, and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word: it is because there is no light in them.

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 8:18 Meaning, them that were willing to hear and obey the word of God, whom the world hated, as though they were monsters and not worthy to live.
2. Isaiah 8:18 This was a consolation in their troubles, knowing that nothing could come unto them, but by the will of the Lord.
3. Isaiah 8:19 Answer the wicked thus, Should not God’s people seek succor only at him?
4. Isaiah 8:19 This is, will they refuse to be taught of the Prophet, who is the mouth of God, and seek help at the dead, which is the illusion of Satan?
5. Isaiah 8:20 Seek remedy in the word of God, where his will is declared.
6. Isaiah 8:20 They have no knowledge, but are blind leaders of the blind.

American Standard Version:
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits and unto the wizards, that chirp and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? on behalf of the living should they seek unto the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 8:20 Or, teaching
2. Isaiah 8:20 Or, surely according to this word shall they speak for whom there is no morning

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition
18 See, I and the children whom the Lord has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. 19 Now if people say to you, ‘Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, 20 for teaching and for instruction?’ surely, those who speak like this will have no dawn!

Now the phrase "unto their God" is used in two other places. (Leviticus 21:6 and Hosea 5:4) In both those passages the reference to "elohim" (which is a plural word) is noted to be "Yahweh" in the context.

I would suppose your remarks are directed towards the Holy Spirit since I'm praying as He directs and I've never been told to direct my petitions elsewhere.

Can you find out from the Holy Spirit what my middle name is? Many of our saints were informed by the Holy Spirit in special ways, if the occasion made it beneficial for this to happen, even knowing a person's name and the nature of their visit prior to their arrival or having been introduced. All such holy people who demonstrated such abilities (given by the Holy Spirit) were in the habit of asking for the intercessions of saints.

We can only take for absolute truth what we read of the Scripture of such type events; not what tradition tells us. I hear lots of people from all sorts of faith backgrounds saying all kinds of things that I'm skeptical of.

This is why we are told to "test the spirits" because not all come from God. Satan disguising himself as an angel of light is a very real thing.

It seems like the whole conflict revolves around the fallacy that people dont die but live after even being murdered. This is the foundation of the concept that it is ok to talk to these "live" people.

Yes, good observation. Who's considered "alive" and who's considered "dead" is where one argument stands and the other falls.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Where does it say in Scripture that deceased saints pray for our salvation? ".... God answered their prayers for you." Why would He not answer one's own prayers for their own salvation?

Isaiah 8:18-20 (note the differences in translations)

King James Version
18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1599 Geneva Bible:
18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me, are as signs and as wonders in Israel, by the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in Mount Zion.

19 And when they shall say unto you, Inquire at them that have a spirit of divination, and at the soothsayers which whisper and murmur, Should not a people inquire at their God? from the living to the dead?

20 To the Law, and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word: it is because there is no light in them.

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 8:18 Meaning, them that were willing to hear and obey the word of God, whom the world hated, as though they were monsters and not worthy to live.
2. Isaiah 8:18 This was a consolation in their troubles, knowing that nothing could come unto them, but by the will of the Lord.
3. Isaiah 8:19 Answer the wicked thus, Should not God’s people seek succor only at him?
4. Isaiah 8:19 This is, will they refuse to be taught of the Prophet, who is the mouth of God, and seek help at the dead, which is the illusion of Satan?
5. Isaiah 8:20 Seek remedy in the word of God, where his will is declared.
6. Isaiah 8:20 They have no knowledge, but are blind leaders of the blind.

American Standard Version:
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits and unto the wizards, that chirp and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? on behalf of the living should they seek unto the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.

Footnotes:

1. 
   
   
   • Isaiah 8:20 Or, teaching
   • Isaiah 8:20 Or, surely according to this word shall they speak for whom there is no morning

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition
18 See, I and the children whom the Lord has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. 19 Now if people say to you, ‘Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, 20 for teaching and for instruction?’ surely, those who speak like this will have no dawn!

Now the phrase "unto their God" is used in two other places. (Leviticus 21:6 and Hosea 5:4) In both those passages the reference to "elohim" (which is a plural word) is noted to be "Yahweh" in the context.





We can only take for absolute truth what we read of the Scripture of such type events; not what tradition tells us. I hear lots of people from all sorts of faith backgrounds saying all kinds of things that I'm skeptical of.

This is why we are told to "test the spirits" because not all come from God. Satan disguising himself as an angel of light is a very real thing.



Yes, good observation. Who's considered "alive" and who's considered "dead" is where one argument stands and the other falls.

How do we know for sure God answers their prayers? On earth there is accountability one with another.. how do we know what they pray? How do we know for sure it is answered. In our Christian walk we have to be accountable.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Earliest known prayer to Mary;

Sub Tuum Praesidium, Under Thy Protection - The American TFP

 

[The Righterzpen]

I like the question..."Good point! Are there any other Scriptures that tell us what those in heaven pray for?"...makes me think...how do we hold the dead accountable? How do we know if their prayers are answered? Where scripurally does it say we are to prayer to or with those saints? Accounability and fruit is a necessity.

Personally, I don't "pay much attention" to the dead / "dead" because what the've done is now past and their deeds in life don't impact me in this life? Besides, we don't hold the dead accountable. That's God's job.

Same thing goes with their prayers. Does it matter to us if their prayers are answered? We can assume that now, being freed from sin that they pray in accordance with God's will; but just because some person still residing in the flesh asks them to pray for something, doesn't mean they comply. Are the deceased saints aware of what's going on on earth? I believe they are. How do these two realms affect each other; outside of what God has already predetermined - I don't know?

 

[The Righterzpen]

How do we know for sure God answers their prayers? On earth there is accountability one with another.. how do we know what they pray? How do we know for sure it is answered. In our Christian walk we have to be accountable.

Good point about human earthy accountability. Assuming those in heaven are now freed from sin; they'd need no accountability. "Well done good and faithful servant". The race is run, the job is over. We pray for each other to help each other get through this life basically. And this is also what we petition God for!

Good points bring clarity!

 

[The Righterzpen]

There is such a thing as a near death experience, we know because we can examine similar stories and corroborate certain elements they share in common.

My S.O. had that type of experience years ago as a child while in a deep coma due to getting pneumonia, and it was similar to your description.

So what's the conclusion as to what the phenomena is? If it's a common experience, there has to be some sort of biological basis to it?

 

[FireDragon76]

So what's the conclusion as to what the phenomena is? If it's a common experience, there has to be some sort of biological basis to it?

Why would it have to have a biological basis? A basic tenet of the Christian faith, historically, is that human beings are more than their biology.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Why would it have to have a biological basis? A basic tenet of the Christian faith, historically, is that human beings are more than their biology.

That doesn't answer the question of the "near death experience" though, because people who aren't Christian have them also. So is it a phenomena that has an earthly answer?

 

[bèlla]

Mental illness can be physical, spiritual or a combo.

I have a combo.

Correct. I was addressing it solely from the spiritual element based on his response.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Good point about human earthy accountability. Assuming those in heaven are now freed from sin; they'd need no accountability. "Well done good and faithful servant". The race is run, the job is over. We pray for each other to help each other get through this life basically. And this is also what we petition God for!

Good points bring clarity!

How can we know if they prayed for us? How many can they do at a time? How do we gauge if their prayers are answered?

 

[FireDragon76]

That doesn't answer the question of the "near death experience" though, because people who aren't Christian have them also. So is it a phenomena that has an earthly answer?

Why would the experience necessarily have to be unique to Christians?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Why would the experience necessarily have to be unique to Christians?

It's not, that's my point. You said why would it have to be biological. We are more than just biology. Yet if the experience does not fall into the spiritual realm, than the only other option is a biological phenomena.

 

[The Righterzpen]

How can we know if they prayed for us? How many can they do at a time? How do we gauge if their prayers are answered?

Well, we don't. That's why it's a pointless question to ask.

See Isaiah 8:18-20

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Before saints were "alive" after death in Christ...who did the Jews pray to? Is there support for this pov?

If they prayed to God alone...and we have the Helper now...why do we need to go through anyone other then The Holy Spirit?

If God already knows your prayers...why would we need saints?

When i die...do i become a saint to petition God? How do we know what prayers i should address?

Does the saint become divine and know when they are not praying amiss?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Well, we don't. That's why it's a pointless question to ask.

See Isaiah 8:18-20

Seems pointless to pray to them then...

 

[FireDragon76]

It's not, that's my point. You said why would it have to be biological. We are more than just biology. Yet if the experience does not fall into the spiritual realm, than the only other option is a biological phenomena.

Who says it doesn't fall into the "spiritual realm". Do Christians really have a monopoly in this area?

 

[bèlla]

I find your experience here intriguing. And though I'm not the kind of person who sees ghosts, demons or angels around every corner. There's an aspect of your experience here I can relate to

Overall, my days are quiet. There was a period after my deliverance where spiritual activity was more prevalent. But it was largely related to developing the spiritual gifts I've been given. I needed to learn how to discern what was good and evil. I couldn't rely on feelings. Learning to listen to my spirit with the Word in tow was paramount.

Because I'm sealed in Christ, I can never be afflicted in the way I was. However, there are instances when praying for someone (or a cause), sharing a Word or passing along information to aid an individual who's spiritually vexed when I'll encounter darkness. The goal in these scenarios is my silence.

But it's my belief that the Lord permitted my suffering for greater reasons aside from my freedom and person. If I'm in a position to assist someone I should do so. Even if the result of my involvement is discomfort. If I detect a serious situation I'll inquire about my involvement in prayer.

I was in a catastrophic car accident in 2010 and I don't know if this was a dream, a "real" experience of the soul, or a result of being on massive doses of painkillers.

I'm sorry to hear of your accident. Have you made a full recovery?

The the figure pointed behind me and said: "No, go back, your son needs you." The next thing I remember was hospital equipment beeping and medical personnel doing something to me. Then I passed out again.

That's an incredible experience. Do you believe you were speaking with Jesus or someone holy? I believe mystical encounters take place but it isn't a subject I rush towards. If you understand my meaning.

He asked me if I remembered talking to him the night before? I said "no" and he laughed and said: "Well that's probably a good thing."

Why do you think he said that?

The first incident? Was that a dream? Is there such thing as "near death experience"? I don't know?

I have never personally experienced the same. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I believe these incidents have a higher purpose. A reason our finite minds can't conceive. During my spiritual attack I frequently prayed aloud while sleeping. I heard myself talking and knew they were verses. But I can't say why and I didn't have the breadth of scripture that I possess at present. My daughter would sleep with me on occasion and echoed the same. If I had to guess I'd say it was my spirit praying on my behalf.

While I acknowledge my experiences I don't immerse myself in them. I don't believe its God's intention for me to do so. The unknown has an uncanny way of sparking curiosity in wayward souls and those lacking maturity or discernment. Much of this hails from a hunger for God. But I'd rather lead them towards Him the right way.