Saints who Protect

[anna ~ grace]

I encourage people to read their Bible carefully. You should take this very seriously. Do not follow the customs of people who tell you to pray to Saints, or other departed souls.

Fund the passage in the OT where the king Saul and his son Johnathon are in deep trouble. So they go to a medium, a spiritist, to raise up Samuel from the dead. Samuel was a prophet of God, and possibly the greatest prophet of all. The Bible does not say that the attempt failed .. in fact the medium was succcessful, Saul did speak to Samuel.

Stop and thnk about this. Did Saul ask to talk to a witch, or to Harry Potter? No, he did not. Did Saul ask to talk to someone without faith? No, he did not. Samuel was a "Saint", in the same way that you are using the word.

So Saul and Johnathon asked to talk to a Saint, a prophet of God who had died.

How did God respond?
God struck down Saul and Johnathon ... dead.
Dead on the same day that they did this.
God was angry.
The commandments were broken.

Do not pray to the dead. And do not get involved with mediums, spiritists, or fortune tellers. Pray to the Living God!

Following only what is clearly and specifically spelled out in Scripture minus anything else actually would me a tradition of men, Gideon. And would lead us to have to seriously debate / call into question things like the Holy Trinity, the nature and deity of Christ, the fate of our souls after death, and what salvation is and what it means. The exact same debates that embroiled those fighting against error in the first few hundred years of Christian history, and which the Reformers themselves could not agree on.

 

[FireDragon76]

I encourage people to read their Bible carefully. You should take this very seriously. Do not follow the customs of people who tell you to pray to Saints, or other departed souls.

Fund the passage in the OT where the king Saul and his son Johnathon are in deep trouble. So they go to a medium, a spiritist, to raise up Samuel from the dead. Samuel was a prophet of God, and possibly the greatest prophet of all. The Bible does not say that the attempt failed .. in fact the medium was succcessful, Saul did speak to Samuel.

Stop and thnk about this. Did Saul ask to talk to a witch, or to Harry Potter? No, he did not. Did Saul ask to talk to someone without faith? No, he did not. Samuel was a "Saint", in the same way that you are using the word.

So Saul and Johnathon asked to talk to a Saint, a prophet of God who had died.

How did God respond?
God struck down Saul and Johnathon ... dead.
Dead on the same day that they did this.
God was angry.
The commandments were broken.

Do not pray to the dead. And do not get involved with mediums, spiritists, or fortune tellers. Pray to the Living God!

Fortunately, that's not what the Catholic and Orthodox practice is about.

 

[JacksBratt]

From the bible:

Rev 6:9 - When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

Martyrs who are slain for the word of God are in the presence of God, i.e., "under the altar".

Rev 6:10 - And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

They cry out to God, "How long...". They know what is happening on the earth, else they would not know that God has not avenged them "on those who dwell on the earth".

Rev 6:11 - Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer...

God hears their supplications, else He would not reply to them by granting them a white robe and asking that "they should rest a little while longer.".

They are already in God's presence. They are asking for Him to avenge their deaths... Not those still alive on earth.

 

[bèlla]

I don't have a patron saint and have never directed petitions to them or sought their aid and I've never been told to do so by the Holy Spirit. I address my prayers to the Father. The absence of prayers to saints haven't hindered His healing, blessings, provision, favor, and grace. I'm overflowing in each.

 

[FireDragon76]

They are already in God's presence. They are asking for Him to avenge their deaths... Not those still alive on earth.

Wow. Something tells me folks in heaven have better things to do than brew in resentment.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Wow. Something tells me folks in heaven have better things to do than brew in resentment.

Revelation 6:10
They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Of course, these are martyrs, not someone who fell asleep peacefully of old age.

 

[ChicanaRose]

I don't have a patron saint and have never directed petitions to them or sought their aid and I've never been told to do so by the Holy Spirit. I address my prayers to the Father. The absence of prayers to saints haven't hindered His healing, blessings, provision, favor, and grace. I'm overflowing in each.

Right, at the minimum, they are not necessary.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Perhaps we need to prioritize the communion of saints here on earth. If we cannot overcome our differences and practice bearing with one another in our daily living (Eph, 2:14, Col. 3:13), what business do we have communing with the saints in heaven?

Reference
Hastings, C Brownlow. “The Communion of Saints in Light of the Baptist Tradition.” Southwestern Journal of Theology 28, no.2 (1986).

 

[FireDragon76]

Perhaps we need to prioritize the communion of saints here on earth. If we cannot overcome our differences and practice bearing with one another in our daily living (Eph, 2:14, Col. 3:13), what business do we have communing with the saints in heaven?

Reference
Hastings, C Brownlow. “The Communion of Saints in Light of the Baptist Tradition.” Southwestern Journal of Theology 28, no.2 (1986).

Whether we ask the saints to pray for us or not, we have communion with them, not owing to our agreement here on earth, by by confessing the faith once delivered to the saints.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Whether we ask the saints to pray for us or not, we have communion with them, not owing to our agreement here on earth, by by confessing the faith once delivered to the saints.

From what I understand, the Lutheran practice of communion of saints does not involve invocation to those in heaven.

You honor them in a sense that you give thanksgiving to God for their examples, and seek to emulate them.

Source:
Persaud, Winston D. “A Lutheran Reflection on The One Mediator, The Saints, and Mary in Relation to the Question: How Do Lutherans Understand Prayer for Other People?” Dialog 52, no.1 (2013)

 

[FireDragon76]

From what I understand, the Lutheran practice of communion of saints does not involve invocation to those in heaven.

You honor them in a sense that you give thanksgiving to God for their examples, and seek to emulate them.

Source:
Persaud, Winston D. “A Lutheran Reflection on The One Mediator, The Saints, and Mary in Relation to the Question: How Do Lutherans Understand Prayer for Other People?” Dialog 52, no.1 (2013)

Yes, but it's important to emphasize we do not deny that the saints in heaven pray for us, because this can be found attested to in the early Church and does not contradict the Scriptures. We do not consider asking them to pray for us to necessarily be idolatry or necromancy, it's simply something we do not teach.

 

[prodromos]

So true...the blind leading the blind at best

Rude and hotty!!

Ironic that you quote this verse. You seem to have your eyes firmly shut and your ears blocked to any reasonable response you are being given.

 

[Pádraigín Ní Saorlaith]

This is what I have gathered.

Technically speaking, it is not prayer to the saints, it is intercession. Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and even some Anglicans see it as no different than asking a living person to pray. Since Christ defeated death (and based on information gathered from the passages in Revelation that have already been mentioned), martyrs and other dead saints are only physically dead. Their souls are in heaven, where they continue to pray for those who are still alive on Earth.

Some saints are seen as having a particular concern for people of different occupations, from ethnic groups, or who are struggling with something in particular, just as a Christian on Earth might have a particular desire to help a certain group of people. (That's not to say they only help those people. That's just the community to where God has called them.) Usually there is some sort of reason for that saint to be considered the patron of a particular group that is based on that saint's own earthly life and experiences (e. g., St. Patrick is the patron saint of Irish people, both in Ireland and throughout the Irish diaspora, because he is historically credited with the Christianization of Ireland). From what I understand, though, their patronage doesn't mean they're the only saint who is praying for that person about whatever they're going through.

Most Protestants are uncomfortable with practicing intercession (I say most because not every Protestant has such a problem with it). Some go so far as to call it idolatry, but most Catholics I know of are well aware of the theological difference between praying to God and asking a saint for prayer, so arguably it is different.

I hope I've explained that well enough.

 

[anna ~ grace]

This is what I have gathered.

Technically speaking, it is not prayer to the saints, it is intercession. Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and even some Anglicans see it as no different than asking a living person to pray. Since Christ defeated death (and based on information gathered from the passages in Revelation that have already been mentioned), martyrs and other dead saints are only physically dead. Their souls are in heaven, where they continue to pray for those who are still alive on Earth.

Some saints are seen as having a particular concern for people of different occupations, from ethnic groups, or who are struggling with something in particular, just as a Christian on Earth might have a particular desire to help a certain group of people. (That's not to say they only help those people. That's just the community to where God has called them.) Usually there is some sort of reason for that saint to be considered the patron of a particular group that is based on that saint's own earthly life and experiences (e. g., St. Patrick is the patron saint of Irish people, both in Ireland and throughout the Irish diaspora, because he is historically credited with the Christianization of Ireland). From what I understand, though, their patronage doesn't mean they're the only saint who is praying for that person about whatever they're going through.

Most Protestants are uncomfortable with practicing intercession (I say most because not every Protestant has such a problem with it). Some go so far as to call it idolatry, but most Catholics I know of are well aware of the theological difference between praying to God and asking a saint for prayer, so arguably it is different.

I hope I've explained that well enough.

Dang, that was pretty good! Thank you!

We do directly petition Saints (e.g. "Immaculate Mary, help us!"), but we still understand it as us requesting their help via prayer and intercession, through the authority and power God has given them in Christ. Just like a human being down here praying for deliverance for a person, and God hearing and honoring that request.

You explained it really well, though! Cool!

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Rude and hotty!!

Ironic that you quote this verse. You seem to have your eyes firmly shut and your ears blocked to any reasonable response you are being given.

Then why did i say i was going to research and possibly change my pov.

 

[prodromos]

Then why did i say i was going to research and possibly change my pov.

You also said "pearls to swine", did you not?

 

[ChicanaRose]

Then why did i say i was going to research and possibly change my pov.

The thing is, you don't need to change your pov or agree with everyone to be accepted as their sister in Christ. We already agree on the first order doctrines, and things outside of these do not make someone more or less saved. If you decide you want to pray to the saints, I will still consider you my sister in Christ.

 

[anna ~ grace]

The thing is, you don't need to change your pov or agree with everyone to be accepted as their sister in Christ. We already agree on the first order doctrines, and things outside of these do not make someone more or less saved. If you decide you want to pray to the saints, I will still consider you my sister in Christ.

I've got a Protestant husband; at this point, this is essentially my attitude, too. If he doesn't do everything that I do, or feel that the Papacy is Scriptural, or read a Bible with 73 books in it, he's still my husband, he's still a Christian, I still love him, and we're still married.

 

[bèlla]

I think you are contextually wrong but i am willing to modify my pov

I would never ask anyone to modify their point of view on spiritual matters. If I cannot agree with their perspective or feel we are too far apart I will remain pleasant and keep my boundaries in place.

I won't tell someone they need to change their beliefs. I would avoid dating or developing a deeper connection if we were spiritually incompatible.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

You also said "pearls to swine", did you not?

Check the order of my posts. I will modify that post since you are offended.