The inconsistencies of the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace

FreeGrace2

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I'm amazed that people who read the WCF statement cannot see that it is saying that God has seen to it that whatever choice a person makes will occur in history.
Oh, this is rich!!

If that were true, then the WCF should have just said so; plain and simple. But their choice of words ARE contradictory, even though Calvinists simply deny reality.

In fact - I am so amazed that I consider people who say that the statement says otherwise are out and out liars.
The truth is that the WCF statement is contradictory.

The lie is that the WCF statement is not contradictory.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I sincerely hope that the moderators will close this thread so that you no longer have this venue to propagate your misrepresentation of Reformed doctrine.

I'll try to let it go at that.
Wow! No different at all from the political far left who keep trying to shut down free speech. For them, there is no tolerance for others of a differing view point.

Nothing has been misrepresented. That statement is untrue, a misrepresentation, a lie. Take your pick.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I'm gonna give this one last shot.

It doesn't seem contradictory to me or to the millions who have subscribed to it over the centuries. But since it apparently does to some others - so be it.

I have asked many times for you and what's his name to please reword the statement in any words you wish, substituting something for the word "ordain" for instance if you like.

All I have asked is that you cover in your rewording the concepts covered not only in the part I have highlighted in the above statement but in the part I have not highlighted as well. Not half of the statement, taking it out of context - all of the statement.

You have consistently resisted my challenge. Instead you have constantly and purposefully referred only to the first part of the statement and left out the second - except to say that you find it contradictory. To which I say - "obviously". Please reword it any way you want including all concepts addressed by the WCF statement.

Instead of doing that - you have made a conscious effort to say, things like "God decreed Adam to sin" and things like in your example below as well.
The WCF also says the following ...

"II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.

III. God, in his ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at his pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.

- Westminster Confession: Chapter 5, Section 2-4"

You should have said what the WCF obviously said in the words you find so objectionable.

For example:

"I am ordering by my authority that Adam be in charge of My apples. That event will assuredly come to pass in history including any actions Adam chooses to do while in that charge. I have told him how I feel about My apples and if he throws any of them away it will be sin. If he were to do that it will be his sin only, for which he will be held responsible, since he has the liberty to make choices and I will not curtail that liberty in any way."

That wasn't that hard to come up with. Yet you purposefully chose to misrepresent what I and many of my brothers and sisters in the Lord believe and teach - and that after being patiently schooled in detail post after post as to what the meaning of the WCF statement is according to Reformed theologians.

After a few dozen posts by you and what's his name doing this kind of thing and it becomes apparent that what you guys are doing is not just inadvertent misrepresentation of the teaching of your bothers and sisters in Christ. Instead it is out and out and very purposeful lying about us.
In post #163 you state ...
f you choose to play games with my illustration in post 160 - we will have nothing more to talk about.

If you refuse to discuss the things we have been visiting in this thread in a fair manner without misrepresenting me and the WCF - we will call it a day.

If you will admit what you have been doing and that it has been misrepresenting me and the WCF statement - I will take your word for it if you tell me that it was inadvertent and I will apologize for my very strong charges against you. :)
So, essentially here is what I see, You are now telling me, "I can't answer your argument. So stop it, admit you're the bad person, or I'll go away."

I have discussed Reformed Theology with many Calvinists, and when the rubber meets the road, they all do the same thing. They say if you disagree with their beliefs (which are written clearly in the WCF) you're simply wrong.

I gave you the Scriptural use of both "decree", and "ordain". You gave me the option to change the words "decree" and "ordain" to a different word; but doing that changes the meaning of the statement.

The writers of the WCF chose the words they chose, (not me). The Confession must stand according to the words written therein.

Just so you are aware, just because thousands of people subscribe to the WCF doesn't make it true. There have been millions of people who have subscribed to creeds and or confessions that have been around longer that the WCF.

The final authority is Scripture ... period.
 
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His student

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I gave you the Scriptural use of both "decree", and "ordain". You gave me the option to change the words "decree" and "ordain" to a different word; but doing that changes the meaning of the statement.
The difference is in correctly saying that the event itself was decreed to come to pass including all of the choices involved in the event and yet the choices that make up the event were authored by the persons involved (as per the gift of free will) --- and saying that the choices themselves were authored by God and forced upon those involved in the event.

One is the obvious intent of the statement in the WCF, whether you like the wording of the statement or not. The other is the purposeful misrepresentation of the statement which you have propagated here in the forum.
 
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Dr. Jack

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The difference is in correctly saying that the event itself was decreed to come to pass including all of the choices involved in the event and yet the choices that make up the event were authored by the persons involved (as per the gift of free will) --- and saying that the choices themselves were authored by God and forced upon those involved in the event.

One is the obvious intent of the statement in the WCF. The other is the misrepresentation of the statement which you have propagated here in the forum.
Please explain how God decreed what our free will would be.
 
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His student

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Please explain how God decreed what our free will would be.
Again with your selective and deceptive wording. I can't believe that isn't being done by you on purpose.:(

Omniscience allowed Him to know what the choices would be under certain parameters. (We've been through all that before.)

Wisdom and purpose were employed in His bringing to pass the parameters in which He knew those choices would be made rather than His bringing to pass other parameters too numerous to discuss.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Again with your selective and deceptive wording. I can't believe that isn't being done by you on purpose.:(

Omniscience allowed Him to know what the choices would be under certain parameters. (We've been through all that before.)

Wisdom and purpose were employed in His bringing to pass the parameters in which He knew those choices would be made rather than His bringing to pass other parameters too numerous to discuss.
Do you understand the difference between foreknowledge and a decree?
 
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His student

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Do you understand the difference between foreknowledge anwd a decree?
Yes.

Foreknowledge has to do with what God knows, and has always known, will happen under certain circumstances. (We've been through these things before.)

Decree has to do with what circumstances will be brought to pass by God according to His most wise and perfect will - culminating in certain happenings that He has always known will occur under said circumstances.

All the while doing "no violence" to the will of the creature but rather establishing that free wlil through their choices.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Does anything happen randomly?
Of course. What's the point?

Of course, for every random act, God already KNEW (not decreed) that act would occur, and when it would occur. And all the effects of that act out into the future.

In all these discussions, when Calvinists are cornered by the WCF, they default to God's omniscience. But the WCF is very clear. A decree by God means there can be no choices involved, other than His own choice of what He decrees.

So, Calvinists speak out of both sides of their mouth. It's called double speak.
 
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Hammster

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FreeGrace2

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Then you don’t believe God is sovereign over all.
Your conclusion is extremely faulty. There is nothing in my post that should lead anyone to such a wrong conclusion.

Being sovereign over all doesn't mean that He alone makes all the choices. That is the error of Calvinism.

Which Dr Jack has so eloguently expressed.

That’s the point.
You don't have one.
 
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Hammster

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Your conclusion is extremely faulty. There is nothing in my post that should lead anyone to such a wrong conclusion.

Being sovereign over all doesn't mean that He alone makes all the choices. That is the error of Calvinism.

Which Dr Jack has so eloguently expressed.


You don't have one.
You can choose to believe that things happen outside of God’s control. I choose to believe He’s sovereign over all, as scripture teaches.

Soli deo gloria
 
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Dr. Jack

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Does anything happen randomly?
Yes.

9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. Ecclesiastes

Let me explain this briefly; God being sovereign doesn't mean that He must 'micromanage' the universe. (Makining certain that every leaf that falls from every tree, falls at the exact place God decreed it to land.)

9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. Ecclesiastes

God can be in control, without micromanaging anything. Because God is omniscient, He is NEVER taken by surprise; rather, He is already prepared for what happens.

Allow me to give you an example from Scripture:

1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. Jonah

God told Jonah to go to Nineveh to preach against it, but Jonah decided by his own will to go in the opposite direction.

1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. Jonah

God neither decreed Jonah to disobey, nor was God unprepared for Jonah's disobedience.
1) In Jonah's free will, Jonah chose to disobey God.
2) In God's foreknowledge, God knew the decision Jonah would make, as well as the decisions of those on the ship, including Jonah being cast overboard.
3) In God being sovereign, He also was prepared to deal with Jonah by preparing a fish to swallow Jonah.

1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Jonah

Notice the words, "Now the LORD had prepared". The words "had prepared" showed that this was done by God because He had foreknowledge of the event (whatsoever comes to pass) but he did not decree the disobedience of Jonah.

4) In God's omniscience God knew exactly what was necessary to cause Jonah to repent, and willingly desire to obey God.

After spending three days and nights in the whale, Jonah prayed to God in repentance.

God never decrees sin, but He allows it. (Huge difference)

God was never out of control in the Book of Jonah. God allows "chance" to happen, and He allows man to exercise their will, without decreeing the end result of their decisions. He can do this because "foreknowledge" is part of omniscience.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Absolutely not.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy

Is the following text Scripture?

9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. Ecclesiastes

Are the following words truth?

"but time and chance happeneth to them all"
 
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Dr. Jack

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Absolutely not.
In post # 179 I specifically pointed out how foreknowledge, omniscience, sovereignty, and omniscience worked together in the narrative of Jonah.

Now, if you disagree, please exegete the text according to your understanding, and present your case, point by point.

That is how it is done properly. We can't just say, "Because", we must support our position with Scriptures that show our position.

Please, make your case.
 
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Hammster

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The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1, NASB)
 
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FreeGrace2

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You can choose to believe that things happen outside of God’s control.
But I never said that. Not even suggested that.

For everything that occurs, must have God's permission. Not His decree. Not His order.

[QTUOE] I choose to believe He’s sovereign over all, as scripture teaches.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely true. I also believe that.

But I don't believe that God decrees or orders everthing that happens.

He sure permits a lot of stuff, though.

Soli deo gloria
Amen!
 
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FreeGrace2

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The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. - Proverbs 16:33
Both Strong's Concordance and the NAS Exhaustive Concordance translate the Hebrew word as "judgment". That can easily be understood as God judging the outcome of the lot being cast. It doesn't say clearly and plainly that God causes every act in human history.

Consider Pro 16:2 - All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

God certainly does judge every act in human history. That's very clear from Scripture.

What is never said is that God causes every act.

The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (Proverbs 21:1, NASB)
Notice the second verse: A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.

Do you see any connection between Prov 16 and 21?

By "weighing the heart/motives" means that God judges them.

Now, back to the "king's heart". The statement about the king's heart doesn't preclude His permitting the king's heart to go its own way. In fact, the Bible specifically says that God has let man go his own way, long before Fleetwood Mac sung the song.

How do you understand these verses?

Ezek 33:20 - Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

mark 7:9 - And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

Acts 14:16 - In the past, he let all nations go their own way.

Certainly it's clear that God allows people to make their own choices.

iow, He doesn't decree people's choices.

If you simply substitute the word "decree" for "always known", then what we have isn't God causing/ordering/decreeing "all things, but that He knows all things.

But Calvinists seem, by their own words, convinced that God's omniscience is determined by what He decides will happen. That is unbiblical.
 
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