What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

[Pavel Mosko]

I have read this thread and it sounds like Alithis is speaking in bad faith. The real issue for him/her isn't the authority structures of most churches, which are generally consensual, the real issue is that Alithis wants to be in charge. Sorry, that is not how it works. You either sit as an equal member of a community's table and discuss, without hurling baseless accusations, or you simply will get nowhere with anyone.



No Protestant church actually has a sacerdotal system, though, so the accusation is baseless.

Personally I would see it as

Romans 14:4
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his ownmaster he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

 

[ace of hearts]

I'm only half way through this thread and find is it sad. I don't understand why a group calling themselves Christians can't be more considerate of each other. I certainly identify with the OP by experience. I'm single. Personally I get just as much fellowship with people at the store as in the church. For me the IC has become nothing more than a very expensive social club. No I'm not going to air what has happened to me. People would only take it wrong. It's for these reasons I'm not part of the IC. Yes some of these have been aired in the thread.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm only half way through this thread and find is it sad. I don't understand why a group calling themselves Christians can't be more considerate of each other. I certainly identify with the OP by experience. I'm single. Personally I get just as much fellowship with people at the store as in the church. For me the IC has become nothing more than a very expensive social club. No I'm not going to air what has happened to me. People would only take it wrong. It's for these reasons I'm not part of the IC. Yes some of these have been aired in the thread.

If you find a toxic church experience, you should leave it rather than stay. And don't look back like Lot's wife. I looked back at one point and it burned me and its something I regret.

I know that's hard, especially if you've really believed in the church or felt compelled to go there, but you have to keep psychologically healthy too and trust God to guide you out of where you have been, just like Abraham did.

 

[ace of hearts]

I think many pastors are very flustered with our society. I have yet to meet a pastor that has examined life. If everything is going well (eating and meeting other personal needs), don't ask any questions (examine what is taught). What I find is parrots. It's always been that way, it has to be right? Really I could name several things that are base strictly on because its always been that way which aren't true. IOW old wives fables sort of theology. I just can't handle that. I can't handle being ostracized for asking questions and not kowtowing.

 

[ace of hearts]

Another thing I've noticed in life is every time I speak up I'm always talking to the exception. I still don't understand how that works.

 

[Paidiske]

Agreed but whether your personal experience is representative of the whole is debatable.

In Australia, I'd say it's representative of all but the Catholics and Orthodox.

@ace of hearts, it sounds like you've encountered mostly poorly formed ministers. Clergy should be able to support people who question and so on.

 

[ace of hearts]

Yet it was God who told Solomon to build the temple. Solomon dedicated the temple with many offerings and a prayer of praise.
Sacrifices were offered in the temple and feasts were celebrated there, for centuries. When the temple was destroyed, Nehemiah was commanded to build another one.
Ezekiel spoke of God's glory leaving the temple, but also of his glory returning to the temple. Jesus went to the temple and the synagogues.

Many people have built churches and cathedrals "to the glory of God", and in many, God centred worship takes place.
Personally I can't get interested in buildings; there is a danger that people worship them, and what goes on in them, instead of God.
But that is not at all the same as saying that the whole system is corrupt and God is not in it. In times of national/local tragedy, the church building, for many, represents hope, stability, comfort.
You may not think that should be the case, but it is. Look at how many started going to church after Princess Diana died. When there was the fire in Grenfell tower in London, many started using, and attending, the local Methodist church - even Muslims. I know this because I know the Minister and heard him speak about it recently.

My hope comes from Jesus.

 

[Strong in Him]

My hope comes from Jesus.

Mine too.
But some non Christians are not yet ready to see that.

 

[Alithis]

Your idea will lead to anarchy and division, that's evil and are not what Lord Jesus wants either. Talking about corrupt...

What Idea...
Can obeying the holy Spirit lead to anarchy ? Nope never
Can folowing Jesus the head abd the ONLY head of HIS body lead to anarchy? Nope.
The reason your so concerned is of 1. A lack of faith in the power if God to govern his own body.
And 2. You dont yet see there are two very different bodies .one has Jesus alone as head the other has man at its helm ..

 

[Alithis]

God made Solomon buid a Temple remember?

Wow.. Your not yet under the new covenant ? ....

 

[Alithis]

It does need to be that way given that most people work 5 to 6 days a week and have families and responsibilities in those areas that they must attend to. There is nothing unreasonable about meeting on Sundays and there is much good historical precedent for it.

You can't make a doctrine out that and hold it up as the model we should all be employing. The Bible doesn't make that case. It simply relates how they conducted themselves at that time. Life was different and we can't carbon copy that into our context. It simply doesn't work.

That is not a "model" per se. The Bible sets up no particular model that is best. People work various shifts throughout the week. Some work graveyard or whatever. We also live much further away from each other, as well. I don't live in the same city I pastor in and I work as well. So meeting at various times is simply not possible. Most people find the current model the best for our modern context.

But that is your choice. You can choose not to participate. But larger churches do have more to offer.


But you could do that in any church model. You could simply come for the service and leave. That has nothing to do with a given church model, but one's willingness to serve.​

The problem with all of this.. It denotes a religious trained mindset that one must work for money 6 days a week seeking thier own mini kingdon upon the earth as if God can in No way provide for they who seek first HIS kingdom ....

 

[Strong in Him]

Wow.. Your not yet under the new covenant ? ....

Saying that God instructed Solomon to build a temple does not indicate that someone is under the old covenant. It's a factual statement. This "corrupt theology" that you seem to think shows itself in the use of buildings, was initiated by God.
Jesus worshipped in the temple - and that was one built by a pagan. He also taught and worshipped in synagogues; as did the early church.

It is neither corrupt, nor wrong, to have buildings where Christians, who ARE the church, can gather for worship.

 

[Strong in Him]

The problem with all of this.. It denotes a religious trained mindset that one must work for money 6 days a week seeking thier own mini kingdon upon the earth as if God can in No way provide for they who seek first HIS kingdom ....

Of course he can.
But what right do you have to imply that working to earn a living is wrong and all true Christians MUST live by faith?
And in my experience it's not about building a "mini kingdom" but about providing for family, elderly parents, maybe paying for health care, being able to give to charities etc etc.

 

[Alithis]

True, but Acts 2:46 does not exclude weekly meetings either. We should absolutely gather as believers outside of Church services to grow closer as a Body, as well as to talk about God and His Word. This is what Bible studies, church socials, and even just casual gatherings among Christian friends are for. However, none of that means we shouldn't have organized meetings once a week.

The NT model is a great model for how the church ought to behave, but that doesn't mean every church has to be small or meet in homes. The Early Church met in the way it did in part because it was so young and small, small enough to be viewed as a strange offshoot of Judaism that was allowed all the legal exceptions given to mainstream Judaism (at least for a little while).
Furthermore, the Church was forced to meet in secret until the reign of Constantine. It was dangerous to meet in specifically designated buildings, so people met in houses, catacombs, etc. It's telling that pretty soon after Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire, congregations began building churches because the risk of being found out was no longer present.

Arguably, the problem with most megachurches is not the size, but that they tend to water-down or otherwise compromise on doctrine and the Gospel. There are active megachurches that preach a false gospel. The problem is not what they are doing but why they are doing it.
I'd also like to point out that just because someone is not actively serving in their own congregation does not mean they are not actively serving in other ways, such as through Christian organizations not based in a particular church, but I digress.

After the reign of Constantine it became dangerous to not meet on SUNdays ...he took control too..imposed patterns and rules of tradition that were not there before... Patterns of rule and control that stand to this day

 

[Alithis]

But what right do you have to imply that working to earn a living is wrong and all true Christians MUST live by faith?

Think through
...re read your own words and really think about what you have said here..
Your entire view of everything Gods has said has been filtered down to you through a church leadership and what results?

The words you just posted as quoted..

You ask what right?
I would say to you.. What right did paul have to write these words in Full contrast to ypur words..
" the Just SHALL live by FAITH"
Or the words .. " without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God..."

How dare he write such things.. Ahh but praise God he Did
Because living by faith ... Which means to take action based upon the absolute truth of all he says .., Not just know about it. Living by faith Frees us from the unbelieving mindset that church tradition chains people in by thier control and monologue.
There is no other way to live in Christ BUT BY FAITH...
Otherwise one is no more then an actionless hearer of the word and under the full bondage that begins in self deception .

The way out of the deception of self and controls of faithless man..
Is to both believe God and then Do as HE says because we DO believe.

 

[Alithis]

Saying that God instructed Solomon to build a temple does not indicate that someone is under the old covenant. It's a factual statement. This "corrupt theology" that you seem to think shows itself in the use of buildings, was initiated by God.
Jesus worshipped in the temple - and that was one built by a pagan. He also taught and worshipped in synagogues; as did the early church.

It is neither corrupt, nor wrong, to have buildings where Christians, who ARE the church, can gather for worship.

Actually jesus entered the building s to preach the truth to them and warn them of thier error..
Saying to them INSIDE the buildings.." Repent" .. And they crucified him for it...

 

[Alithis]

Ah

 

[Alithis]

With one exception, the house groups I have been to have tended to be a bit ingrown - I was accused once of spoiling an already established 'sense of community'. That is going to happen when someone new joins any group that's been going a bit. I always greeted people by name in the group. The exception was one that was being led by a chap who was in pastoral training - it was a bit more welcoming. I just feel these groups spoil it for folks who want to have fellowship at the Sunday service - because the home-groupers are focused on others in their groups, I think it changes the dynamic of fellowship in a church. It becomes less outgoing.

The problem with many house churches is they simply try to propagate a miniterization of the same corrupt leadership heirachial theology..

 

[Oldmantook]

The problem with many house churches is they simply try to propagate a miniterization of the same corrupt leadership heirachial theology..

That is true no matter where we happen to meet - whether it be in someone's house or a church building. That is why it is vital to follow Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14:26 which mitigates against hierarchical domination and allows the opportunity for everyone to participate and exercise their gifts in order to edify the body.

 

[Alithis]

True, but Acts 2:46 does not exclude weekly meetings either. We should absolutely gather as believers outside of Church services to grow closer as a Body, as well as to talk about God and His Word. This is what Bible studies, church socials, and even just casual gatherings among Christian friends are for. However, none of that means we shouldn't have organized meetings once a week.

The NT model is a great model for how the church ought to behave, but that doesn't mean every church has to be small or meet in homes. The Early Church met in the way it did in part because it was so young and small, small enough to be viewed as a strange offshoot of Judaism that was allowed all the legal exceptions given to mainstream Judaism (at least for a little while).
Furthermore, the Church was forced to meet in secret until the reign of Constantine. It was dangerous to meet in specifically designated buildings, so people met in houses, catacombs, etc. It's telling that pretty soon after Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire, congregations began building churches because the risk of being found out was no longer present.

Arguably, the problem with most megachurches is not the size, but that they tend to water-down or otherwise compromise on doctrine and the Gospel. There are active megachurches that preach a false gospel. The problem is not what they are doing but why they are doing it.
I'd also like to point out that just because someone is not actively serving in their own congregation does not mean they are not actively serving in other ways, such as through Christian organizations not based in a particular church, but I digress.

I think it not to do with the day of the week or the time of day or the frequency of meeting..

Its more about the mindset and tradition and motive.

Take a wide overview.. (Comnent here aimed at the whole thread) Here is ONE scenario form.but its roots trace back only to manmade origins.

A group of believers get together on regular basis.. Often instigated by an individual.
Who has been trained at this or that bible school seminary or other.
Others join and the numbers increase a bit..
There is actually no need for the group to all meet in one place on one day.. There are a myriad of options.
But.. That person has been trained that " This is the way you do it" so here at the beginnings of it we see tradition taking lordship over Jesus himself.

Then they get a " vision" ...they call it such.
They will procure a building to meet in.
There is actually no new testiment command or instruction to do so.. (As is the case with most of mans churchy traditions, they dont have a scriptural origin )
Then comes the enthusiastic call and coercions for $$$ monies.
Never mind the fatherless and the widow...we Must have our building ,we Will have our building..
Then off to the world cap in hand for the loan..
And thus the borrower has become slave to the lender..
It all rides along on a wave of carnal enthusiasm.
Then the funds drop off and pressures come on to meet financial obligations of the money master..
Then on sunday at 10.05am ,you sing and praise god your under grace not law...your told.. And three songs later at 10:20am.your given a peptalk reminding you of your obligation to obey the LAW of the tithe from a misrepresented verse in Malachi..
And now everthing has become a contradiction ..

Now of course in this scenario i used probably a picture of all evangelical charismatic type systems...
The older established man made systems already have thier huge chapels of stone traditions and how They obtained those is often a far darker story on the backs of the poor or lied to , to get them to buy recited written prayers to get thier passed on relatives out of hell fire... A tradition also with zero scriptural origin . prayers for $profit..
The protestants then did coercions.. The evangelicals then did it.. The penticostals and charismatics did it...

Often in this thread people have said you cant make such a broad statement saying the theology of church leadership is corrupt..
Yet we see this one Form alone of corrupt pattern in how many denominations.. ? All of them .
And if not tithe... Its what is done with freewill offering..
How much of it is poured into the upkeep of old dead shells called buildings ... And the poor are sneered at for not attending the buildings then if they do attend are they aided? (Theres always the exception) but they also are coerced by suggestion and implication ..to hand over monies..
This all is just one single area ...

Yet it is repeated and perpetuated over and over through generations...
And why?
Because the man made church systems makes for itself diciples of the man made church system who then do the same.

But we were never called to be diciples of the church .
But Diciples of Jesus...

Think it through ....step back and take a wider look