What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

[Alithis]

I don't know what kind of church you go to, but let me tell you how it is in the churches I know about.
The congregations vote people onto a church council/PCC/church leadership team. Those teams meet regularly to discuss church matters. Most of them may be lead by the Minister/vicar or whoever, but when our Minister was on sabbatical, they were lead by the stewards.
On that team there is a treasurer, a property secretary and maybe others too. Even the treasurer doesn't tell people how much to give each week, never mind the Minister.
The Minster leads the meetings; he/she does not direct the decisions.

Worship is planned separately by another team. In our church, anyone can go to a worship planning meeting. In the church that I grew up in, the worship committee was a separate group of people - elected, I think, from those on the PCC.

The Minister may say that they think we should do a sermon series/teach a particular book of Scripture. The worship meeting may not agree and, even if they do, if preachers don't want to take part they make themselves unavailable. No one is forced to do anything.

In what sense does the Minister dominate people?



As I said; speak for yourself.
I do not recognise that in any of our churches.

Your not allowed to

 

[Alithis]

Jesus also said not to judge according to appaerance, but to make righteous judgement. I think you need to step back and look at the judgement you are making in which we have all been guilty of including myself. We cannot look at a name, specefic gathering time and place and assume that each and every one has a Pastor and staff that is all about money and control. My advice is that you step back and find yourself a place and make judgements regarding the substance of the people within and whether they truly Loce as Jesus Christ loves.

done.
Conclusion..the same.
What system of corruption based upon corrupt theology am i speaking off ?

 

[Alithis]

80% of churches in the US have congregations under 150 in membership and less than that in regular attendance. >>> https://factsandtrends.net/2016/02/...hurches-fall-below-100-in-worship-attendance/

There are many cases where the pastors work full time jobs and do not take a salary from their church or in some cases, only take enough to cover minor expenses like gas and car upkeep. I know pastors that do not live in the same city that they pastor in or in some cases actually preach at more than one church on a given Sunday.

Pastors in of large churches who draw large salaries are actually not the norm. But there is nothing unprincipled about that, given that larger churches have more responsibilities and thus, more expectations of their pastors. Pastors at larger churches work very, very hard. Preaching is less than 1% of what a pastor does throughout the week. Most people are unaware of what pastors do and how hard they actually work.

Thats all very nice info.
Yet still they insist on stressing to run it all on a system based on a corrupt theology.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree..some have very low salaries..
And still they stay in that system ...
.

"That system" helps actual people in their lives find spiritual consolation. While @Paidiske knows I can be critical at times, it's only because I want to see us do better . But I must also at times acknowledge what God accomplishes through us, despite our brokenness.

There are a dozen or more threads every week here talking about biblical primitivism. The US is full of small sects that do that sort of thing, and some large ones, too (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses). Most of them have no more impact in their communities than my church does, some of them alot less, and much of the good comes with a great deal of bad.

Lutherans do not primarily think of the Church as "an institution" anyways. We agree our institutions in our denomination are human, but we have yet to see convincing alternatives that will accomplish our mission. We are open to concrete suggestions, though, not merely "read the Bible" (which we do).

 

[Alithis]

No, actually my church follows the same Book of Worship and supplemental books used by most ELCA churches. We are not an exception. You will see what I described at pretty much any ELCA church that you visit.

.i must laugh a bit....the ELCA runs in the pattern prescribed to it , by men .
Who control that prescription ..
Boom .
The system of control .

 

[Alithis]

Your posts indicates that you are out of touch with what is really happening in churches today.

The entire thread is addressing ..what is really happening in churches today.

but I have been in church for nearly 50 years and I see the amazing fruit that has come of it and paying pastors a wage was never a hinderance to the advancement of the Gospel. If you were actually looking at fruit, you would have seen that.

What fruit do you speak of ..and how does it equate to personal fruit.
What the system calls fruit is just the multiplication of the system .
The fruit God calls for is our own fruit.
Since the Ekklesia is Us the individual and the gathering together the congragating.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not one that I know. Not one that I've ever known. Not one that I know of.

Salaries vary typically based on donations from the laity. Most of the Protestant churches I've gone to have predominantly older people on fixed incomes. In the case of St. Stephen's, the Orthodox parish, they were saving up for a better building, not a priest's salary. The Episcopal cathedral had lots of money, but then Episcopalians always do. And they were generous with that money too, esp. in projects for the homeless and the community.

 

[Alithis]

I have served as associate pastor in churches, in 3 states and 2 countries, since '81 never asked for or received a single penny. I have never served with a bully pastor. I only heard one pastor talk about needing money. In the late 70s our congregation was having a men's breakfast. This pastor, who baptized both of my wives and buried the first one, said to the group with tears in in eyes. "I have never asked a church for a raise but it is a shame that a pastor has to borrow money to feed his family."
.....I was incensed, so I said to myself this cannot be allowed continue." I was a regular member at the time, I did some research, via library no internet, I learned the median salary for that area was a little more than $15k. Next business meeting, I opened the subject. After outlining the situation I said, "This is the median salary for this area, this is where we start." After some discussion the pastor's salary was increased to more than $15k, almost double his previous salary.

And here is the corruption of the system fruits made evident.
The moment we turn to the hands of men we display no faith in God but much faith in men .
The system has taught that too

 

[Paidiske]

To me that's how it should be - free to choose one's level of participation. Why should everyone have to get involved? What about a Dr who has just worked 80 hours that week, why can't he come and simply recharge his batteries? Even if not working long hours why do I have to be involved in something beyond attending once on a sunday to worship God?

Well, I think there are a couple of separate issues there. I agree that for some people, the church service is a place of rest and refreshment after active service elsewhere.

But in terms of involvement in the mission of God; that's something we're all called to, as Christians. How we each live that out is highly individual based on our gifts, abilities, personality, opportunities, etc; but it's not an optional part of being Christian.

I wont say they all enjoy it.... Im sure at times its a thankless task.
But they endure it.... For the money.

This really is laughable. If I wanted money I could make a lot more in the secular world (as could most clergy).

There would be some who enter the ministry for wrong reasons, but most of us are here in obedience to God's call. Not because it's an easy way to get rich.

(Side note: @FireDragon76 not all Anglican churches have lots of money! It's helpful in a forum like this to remember that America isn't the whole picture).

 

[Alithis]

Salaries vary typically based on donations from the laity. Most of the Protestant churches I've gone to have predominantly older people on fixed incomes. In the case of St. Stephen's, the Orthodox parish, they were saving up for a better building, not a priest's salary. The Episcopal cathedral had lots of money, but then Episcopalians always do. And they were generous with that money too, esp. in projects for the homeless and the community.

the laity..?
Those BENEATH THE elite clergy...
But oh no ..yours doesnt lord it over domineering people...nooo ..

Call me incredulous .. You really cant see it ?
...serious question

 

[FireDragon76]

And here is the corruption of the system fruits made evident.
The moment we turn to the hands of men we display no faith in God but much faith in men .
The system has taught that too

This is what we call a confusion of Law and Gospel and a confusion of the Two Kingdoms, by extension. My religious denomination, being a human institution in the world with a divine mission, must depend on accounting and reasonable planning and deliberation, and not just faith, to keep it going. That's why my pastor and church council must make decisions according to the balance books, and not just according to what would be ideal.

 

[Alithis]

Well, I think there are a couple of separate issues there. I agree that for some people, the church service is a place of rest and refreshment after active service elsewhere.

But in terms of involvement in the mission of God; that's something we're all called to, as Christians. How we each live that out is highly individual based on our gifts, abilities, personality, opportunities, etc; but it's not an optional part of being Christian.



This really is laughable. If I wanted money I could make a lot more in the secular world (as could most clergy).

There would be some who enter the ministry for wrong reasons, but most of us are here in obedience to God's call. Not because it's an easy way to get rich.

(Side note: @FireDragon76 not all Anglican churches have lots of money! It's helpful in a forum like this to remember that America isn't the whole picture).

Did God called you to serve a man made system ?
Or did you want it..

 

[Alithis]

You make up your own individual idea on the subject my friend.

Man has always built 'buildings' in which to gather in the name of God. Even Jesus used them to preach and teach etc.

Man has...
Thanks for reinforcing that point.
Its mans doing
Mans traditions
Mans system.

God does not inhabit a temple made by mans hands.
Dont knock me. Its God that said so.

 

[Paidiske]

Did God called you to serve a man made system ?
Or did you want it..

Not to serve the system, but to serve within it.

I didn't want it! Would have been quite content to go on as I was in the world of business, volunteering in church in my spare time. The idea of preaching was terrifying to me. God had other ideas.

 

[Alithis]

This is what we call a confusion of Law and Gospel and a confusion of the Two Kingdoms, by extension. My religious denomination, being a human institution in the world with a divine mission, must depend on accounting and reasonable planning and deliberation, and not just faith, to keep it going. That's why my pastor and church council must make decisions according to the balance books, and not just according to what would be ideal.

Oh yikes.. Youve become gods unto yourselves

 

[FireDragon76]

But in terms of involvement in the mission of God; that's something we're all called to, as Christians. How we each live that out is highly individual based on our gifts, abilities, personality, opportunities, etc; but it's not an optional part of being Christian.

I don't think God's mission depends on the Church per se. God can raise up prophetic voices outside the Church when the Church fails, and I believe history since WWII has shown that, where the Church has mostly been on the wrong side of civil rights issues.

You might want to look into the Lutheran concept of vocation some time, just because I think there's a tendency in the Reformed/Anglican tradition to think of the Christian life as somehow being different from the regular business of raising families, building communities, stewardship of our resources, and so forth. Otherwise, if you emphasize the extraordinary too much, you can end up in a situation where your message actually becomes more of a scandal to the faithful.

My real issue with my church is how some congregations are not taking account of how vocation may look different now in the past, especially with changing patterns of living and just a general move to a post-Christian society. We are stuck in 1950's era spirituality when we need to be speaking more to younger people. Our church has the resources, especially in our hymnal and in our official liturgical texts, but some laity simply don't seem to feel the need to change much of anything to draw in a wider community.

 

[FireDragon76]

(Side note: @FireDragon76 not all Anglican churches have lots of money! It's helpful in a forum like this to remember that America isn't the whole picture).

I did not think that the term "Episcopalian" could mean much else, other than perhaps the Scottish Episcopal Church. In the US, "Anglican" typically means either "Not those crazy Episcopalians" or "Church of England", BTW. It's not a term I usually use unless I'm not reffering to Episcopalians. At the cathedral I went to, they very rarely called themselves "Anglican".

 

[Justified112]

The entire thread is addressing ..what is really happening in churches today.

Yes. Something you have no clue about.

What fruit do you speak of ..and how does it equate to personal fruit.

Maybe you should actually read my posts before you answer me because I explained that, already. I spoke to the way that churches work together to bless their communities and how they provide help and relief in the wake of natural disasters. They do a lot of things to promote the Kingdom of God in a good way. And churches are made people, individual people bearing fruit.

What the system calls fruit is just the multiplication of the system .

You don't know what you're talking about and really know nothing about the Church.[/QUOTE]

 

[Justified112]

Thats all very nice info.
Yet still they insist on stressing to run it all on a system based on a corrupt theology.

What tents of theology are corrupt? Specifically?

 

[☦Marius☦]

Hmm... is this rhetorical? Is is sarcasm? The Church history is filled with slavery, murder, rape, imperialism and usury. Atheists don't just hate religious institutions because they are awesome. They can recognize the immorality at base level because the Church spends its time hiding it behind a veil instead of obliterating and confronting it. Maybe not the individuals, but the institution as a whole.




When will we follow the Most High God over humans - no matter the rank we give them? This is the meaning of what I am getting at; doctrine has been created at our souls' expense. Realize it. The only Human Entity that should be extolled is the Word of God. I don't think the Church truly believes He is alive, because if they did they would know how accessible He is, and that there is no need for any authority (i.e. the Church leaders - including the POPE - would need to abdicate their positions until the Word of God Himself designates them with their function and cause.) The Word of God has order over His people - Israel (a people).



The world has always been in chaos because of our ignorance; if we are ignorant of this fact, we will remain in chaos. The Most High God leads souls, not a paradigm. When will we stop looking to abstractions for fulfillment, and look directly to the Most High God? If it isn't idols, it is fake hierarchies built by men that makes false image of a hierarchy already set up from the foundation of the world. The Word of God is the Living King; He appoints who will rule, judge and teach. That is why Church leadership has lost its way, and will continue to lose its way. They think it is about authority; Someone already has the authority!

The church needs to stop creating stumbling blocks for laity; everyone has everything to offer - it isn't just for "leaders", and you cannot teach someone how to love a God through institution and academia.

First off the objection to the papacy and it's replacement of Christ being the center of the church is exactly why the great schism happened. Secondly you seem to think that one can't follow God by humbly submitting to those he puts in authority over us. What if every early Christian had thought as you and told the apostles "no" when they elected the first bishops. Thirdly your accusations have less to do with Christianity as a whole, and more to do strictly with Roman Catholicism and protestantism.

Ok.

Yea pretty much the sum of your argument. Because when the individual is proudly in charge, there is no room for reproof or humility.