What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Alithis

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You have a very narrowed and flawed view of church leadership.
Thats the old ad hominem again .

The topic is about the theology of church leadership.

The scripture paints it as a servant hood placed Under the body to luft it and build it UP.
Not a roof dominating it and containing it
 
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Dave-W

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there should never have been renumeration for spiritual service.
That is In opposition to what Paul taught about those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel.
 
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Alithis

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My experience suggests that it's much more complex than that.

What control the minister exercises (and this varies greatly from church to church) comes about because the whole body delegates that role to the minister. The authority of the minister is given and subsists in the authority of the church.

Control by one person of a body of individuals and their choices is abusive, plain and simple. But control over things like the mission of the church is necessary leadership.

At any rate, in my experience, it's far more common for ministers to be bullied by their congregations than the other way around...
They are not "thier" congregations ... That mindset in itself is error
 
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DaveM

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we are much stronger and able to reach more people and help more people when we are together and organized, yes some churches misuse this, and some are great, just like the people who make up Gods church.

the bible teaches that those who spread the gospel have a right to EARN a living from it.
 
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Alithis

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That is In opposition to what Paul taught about those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel.
The ox did not earn a profit when it was not muzzeld ... It ate freely of what it needed. It stored up nothing
 
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Dave-W

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The topic is about the theology of church leadership.
Correct. Paul said it is a gift, from God.

You do not throw away a gift because some misuse it.
 
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Alithis

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we are much stronger and able to reach more people and help more people when we are together and organized, yes some churches misuse this, and some are great, just like the people who make up Gods church.

the bible teaches that those who spread the gospel have a right to EARN a living from it.
How hypocritical is the one who would claim this verse to pay a bank its dues in contractual death grip ( mort-gage) while reading scripture to the people stating one should forsake thevthings of the world and seek first Gods kingdom ... Then from the monetary gains he/she makes from doing so, goes and seeks the very things of the world he just preached in opposition to.

Look again at the big picture
 
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Dave-W

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They are not "thier" congregations ... That mindset in itself is error
“That mindset” is the more Hebraic approach as opposed to the Greek model. Have you ever heard the term Rosh Yeshiva? (Head of the training school)

Paul pattered his New Covenant Gentile assemblies similar to the Jewish synagogue. The Rabbi (teacher) was a Rosh Yeshiva in a small sense for each congregation. Head - not the tail or the underpinning.
 
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com7fy8

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im not painting the entire christian world in anything.
Just the sunday system of dominance and control.
The Sunday culture can be a way for non-Christians to have a place to hide from the Jesus people. They are not controlled, at all, in a number of cases. They can go where they go, but all week do what they jolly well please, because their pastors have no say about them, do not know them personally, and have no legal or other power over them. Ones might put in a dollar.

But in case ones believe the Bible is God's word, and they and the pastor know each other and other leaders and members, ones can keep track of them, so they can feel social pressure to do things the pastor and others say a Christian has to do. It can be obedience because of feeling pressure. Some might even be told to search the scriptures to see if they are being told to do what they do; but they feel pressured not to differ from what they have been told.

But Hebrews 13:17 does say >

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)

So, God does have His rulers whom He Himself trusts to take care of us. So, we need to find out who these people are. And He leads them to have His sheep doing what He is leading His sheep to do.

But yes there are less mature pastors who still need to find out how to walk with God; they are not mature examples like Paul describes in 1 Timothy 3:1-10. So, we do need to be able to tell the difference, about what is God leading us and what isn't >

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

the theology of church leadership is very controversial and must be examined.
Well, what is the first issue?

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And we have who is qualified just to be considered to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

These are leading by example. But they do rule. Paul says a man needs to know how to rule his own house, or else how can he know how to take care of God's people? But ruling is not only controlling. Control is or can be mainly an ego problem. Jesus has so much more than only control. But He does have all-control. But what is God really about? > we are destined to be conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29. And I see this is the focus of the ministry of Paul > Colossians 1:28-29.

So, there is the world's focus on control, and Christianity's focus on conforming to the image of Jesus. Control does not produce this. Plus, copy-catting doesn't :) So, we can spend all day talking about what worldly people are doing, in their control gaming, and this can keep our attention away from what needs our attention . . . what does work, what God is doing.
 
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FireDragon76

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Sorry ....historical fact is just historical fact. Dont take it personally.

Blaming an entire group for the sins of their ancestors is barbaric. We try to do better. We're Christians, after all.
 
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thecolorsblend

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1 person at the front calling the shots
This is objectively not true. A lot of ecclesial communities and even some entire organizations are led by laymen, groups of elders, etc.

I disagree with that approach (which implies that I disagree with you as well) but on this point you are quite completely mistaken.
 
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FireDragon76

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My experience suggests that it's much more complex than that.

What control the minister exercises (and this varies greatly from church to church) comes about because the whole body delegates that role to the minister. The authority of the minister is given and subsists in the authority of the church.

Control by one person of a body of individuals and their choices is abusive, plain and simple. But control over things like the mission of the church is necessary leadership.

At any rate, in my experience, it's far more common for ministers to be bullied by their congregations than the other way around...

At my church our doctrine is that our pastor is simply someone called by God through the congregation and entrusted with authority to preach the Word ... by God through the People of God. This is not an authoritarian model of church polity, not at all. Theoretically, you could be Lutheran and have a house church, we have nothing against that . But we prefer to not change things unless we are sure they are broken.

Lutherans are VERY meticulous about finances. Everybody in our congregation sees our pastors salary and votes to approve it, or not. Considering our pastor is a highly educated man, he gets paid far below what he could get in other professions.

Our pastors are much beloved and they aren't crooks out to fleece the flock. They are just servants.
 
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com7fy8

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What control the minister exercises (and this varies greatly from church to church) comes about because the whole body delegates that role to the minister. The authority of the minister is given and subsists in the authority of the church.
In case this is relevant to what you are saying, Paidiske >

Even if a minister is abusive, he or she can not be unless people go along with the abuse. So, even abused bodies are giving power to the abusive leadership, I now can see.

Then there is democratic giving of power. The pastor knows his or her local group can fire him or her, at any time. And they even have various meetings of the church, to decide about things they will do or not.

In my church, it seems we have leaders we trust, and so we hardly pay any attention to their various business and ministerial activities. We ourselves have enough to do. We benefit from worship and hearing the word, give money so they have something financial to work with, then we have plenty to do, ourselves. I think of how Joseph was trusted so his owner and the prison head did not even check up on Joseph; because they could see God was with him! :)

But yes there is abuse of the pastor, in cases where a certain in-crowd has been appointed or put themselves into power, however that worked; and they put various demands on the pastor. But the pastor gives them power to do that, by staying there and going along with that.

So - - I can take advantage of how ones are doing a control thing. Let them stay where they are > they are stuck there, since they have to use their time and energy to keep their controlling going. I do not have to be around them, trying to change them! I can rest in Jesus and share with whomever Jesus approves > "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

But . . . @Paidiske > I understand you might be in a church of a large international group, and you might have been sent there by higher leadership. Or, you belong to a large international group and got elected into a church. You might not feel you can just duck away from an abusive situation, since you feel loyal to the organization which has that church.

But there you find yourself being bullied and abused and not really pastoring sheep. So, what do you believe someone needs to do, in such a situation? I mean, do you see this happening, in certain churches, and what do the more mature leaders counsel such a pastor to do?
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
They told Aaron and Moses, "You've led long enough, seeing the congregation are holy, and God's among them. Why do you lift yourselves up above God's congregation?"

Their argument was that they all had an equal right to the priesthood and to the leadership, and any member might claim its rights.

The rebels overlooked that God was responsible for the present arrangement, and that God had made the obedience of Israel to the terms of the covenant God's condition when God called them to be God's.

- See Numbers 16:3.
 
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Paidiske

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IBut yes there is abuse of the pastor, in cases where a certain in-crowd has been appointed or put themselves into power, however that worked; and they put various demands on the pastor. But the pastor gives them power to do that, by staying there and going along with that....

But . . . @Paidiske > I understand you might be in a church of a large international group, and you might have been sent there by higher leadership. Or, you belong to a large international group and got elected into a church. You might not feel you can just duck away from an abusive situation, since you feel loyal to the organization which has that church.

But there you find yourself being bullied and abused and not really pastoring sheep. So, what do you believe someone needs to do, in such a situation? I mean, do you see this happening, in certain churches, and what do the more mature leaders counsel such a pastor to do?

I certainly see this happening. Although it's a mixed bag; you might have some bullies in a congregation and at the same time some people who are genuinely, sincerely and wonderfully Christian; and a minister trying to work with all those people at the same time.

I don't know that I have clear answers. If I did I wouldn't be wrestling with the problem! One thing I observe is that there seems to be an assumption that the pastor/minister/priest will manage the situation, even if they are being bullied; that somehow they are responsible for "fixing" the bullies. I am, right now, not convinced that that is either fair or practically effective.

In my church we have a careful separation of powers; control of money and property and so forth is in the hands of lay people; teaching and leading worship in the hands of clergy. Mission is a shared responsibility. It's not perfect but it does work against any one person dominating an entire community.
 
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Der Alte

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<Al>And we have the first ad hominem winner.
Ignore the topic and go straight to making ot about the poster..
Shall we try again.
All churches that meet on sundays in a building adhere to the same SYSTEM of a semi boss over the common people.
Name one that does not ...
They all use differing titles ... But the system pattern remains the same.
1 person at the front calling the shots.
And to justify this system they use a corrupted theology that one is taught from people . not directly from scripture<Al>
It is not ad hom to say that a post "contain/s/ a good smattering of the error of Korah." That does in no way attack the poster.
What you are condemning was going on in Israel at the time of Jesus. Was there not a leader in the synagogues? In Luke 4:17-20 there was a minister in charge who handed the scroll of Isaiah to Jesus. Jesus did not criticize the minster saying he was about money and control. The term "ἀρχισυνάγωγος/archisunagogos, head or ruler of the synagogue occurs 9 times in the NT. And that system was never criticized by any NT writer.
 
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DamianWarS

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The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
there are a lot of counter-biblical focuses with the church building system. it inherently separates the holy from the secular and this is reinforced by language as well such as calling it the house of God or having elevated holy positions.

All religions have a temple, priest and sacrifice. Typically the priest performs the sacrifice in the temple for our sanctification. in Christianity, this is turned on its head, Christ occupies all these positions as he is the new temple, the former destroyed and rebuilt as new in Christ, he is the high priest and he is the sacrifice and with belief in him we become those things; we are a royal priesthood, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are living sacrifice to God.

The organized church, however, whether deliberate or not, has created a digressed system that puts value back into a temple building, a special priest who is the only one worthy to perform the sacrifice (The Lord's supper). These are pagan values and we do a disservice to Christ when we put all our energy in keeping these things.

These systems should begin to be dismantled or de-emphasized and biblical models proclaimed. The opposite end of the problem is people stop gathering claiming all these things can be done apart from the church system. Where this is true on some level the gathering of believers is an intrinsic part of who we are and it should never be dismissed because we think everything is too corrupt.

I enjoy the model of house church the most and feel it best manifests the values of a biblical model of church. Intimacy is far greater, people are more comfortable and there is less of a divide between an unattainable holy realm and the realm that everything else exists in. The whole system is also less intimidating and immensely more cost-effective. it is very expensive to run a "church".
 
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com7fy8

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One thing I observe is that there seems to be an assumption that the pastor/minister/priest will manage the situation, even if they are being bullied; that somehow they are responsible for "fixing" the bullies.
I think of how Paul says to rebuke the sinning, before all. But there needs to be authority in place, and I would say this means the pastor is not on one's own. But others in the church have power and authority to manage wrong people.

There can be clear teaching about things of bullying which the Bible clearly says are evil. Make sure everyone has been taught about these things . . . for at home, too. Then, when someone violates these standards, the ones in authority can confront them, with witnesses > 2 Corinthians 13:1.

But it starts with good example of the ones in power, so anyone who goes against good example can be automatically exposed and getting noticed with disapproving attention they do not want to get. But mainly cultivate the ones who want to follow good example leadership. Jesus spent time alone in the garden with the disciples, so I would say He could share with them but also help them who were interested to get real correction and maturing in how to relate in love.

But He did not "fix" anybody, I would say. He would be their example, and sow the seeds which God is able to use.

So, among other things > I would say present the scriptures which point out things which are wrong, which bullies do. But with a sound confrontation also give the good encouragements which are in the Bible and good example.

Maybe for an example > at our homeless outreach truck a guy helping was standing in the faces of people who came for help when it was not scheduled. He would stand and block them, instead of relating and communicating about our rules that we set up the truck, then go to the place where ones wait in line. But we do make one-time exceptions, and try to help anyone who comes to the set-up place, then plead with them to not send anyone to the wrong place.

So, I told the guy to wait until our supervisor came out, and she helped the guy and prayed with him, but then advised him where to go. And I talked with the guy who would block people. I said we have rules, but Jesus never turned anyone way. So, we can't just turn people away. I made sure Jesus was in the argument :)
 
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Mountainmike

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You really do need to study the early church, before the new testament even existed. You are in for a surprise.

Look at the earliest documents. Written by those taught by apostles.
From church gatherings for agape and eucharist clearly on the "lords day" (didache)
To the need for bishops in succession to preside over eucharist for it to be valid.(ignatius)
The church presiding over what was true doctrine and looking to Rome for authority over what was true, and what was heresy. (iraneus)

It is why the bible itself says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church, which is the household of God" (ie physical church)

And it is why our Lord says to Peter and separately to the apostles together they have the power to "bind and loose" which means infallible statement on matters of doctrine and law.

It is also why the bible says "how can they teach if they are not sent?"

And is why the bible says "stay true to tradition we taught you by word of mouth and letter"

Sola scriptura is your problem.
The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.
 
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