If you are Israel

[Douggg]

Wrong.
Jesus stands on Mt Zion and selects the 144k from out of the great multitude. Revelation 14:1-5
All of Revelation chapter 7 is describing earthly scenes. It is 'rapture' rubbish to think that the vast multitude of Christians are in heaven, nowhere does Rev 7 , or anywhere else in the Bible say we go to live in heaven.

When Moses and Elijah appeared to some of the disciples on the Mt. of Transfiguration, where did they come from - another part of the earth?

They might have come from a place called paradise, but it was not from another place on the earth.

When John heard the voice that sounded like a trumpet - come up hither - was he taken to another place upon the earth - or heaven?

When the two witnesses rise after coming back to life in Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

1Thessalonians4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If a person used your logic, raptured Christians, would forever be with the Lord in the space called the air - because it doesn't say anything about descending right back down to earth in that verse nor adjoining verses.

Keras, you are sealing your own destiny when speak so vehemently against raptured Chrisitans going to heaven - calling it rubbish.

 

[Douggg]

The 144,000 were from Israel; the innumerable multitude from all nations. Because of this comparison—144,000 from Israel on one hand, and an innumerable multitude of converts from among the Gentiles on the other—it seems clear that the 144,000 were converts from Israel, Israel in the literal sense of the word.

Ralph Woodrow. His Truth is Marching On.

I agree with the rationale. I would say that the 144,000 are sealed because they will have become Christians before great tribulation begins, and are here on earth when the they are sealed.

Then the great tribulation begins.

The multitude in Revelation 7 are the souls of them from the nations who are martyred during the great tribulation.

 

[Dave L]

Abraham begot Issac.Not Israel.
That does not make you Israel.

Scripture uses "Hebrews" and "Israel" interchangeably. = Abraham's seed (Hebrews) became Israel.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

 

[Justasurvivor]

Seems several people on this board believe they are Israel and boast .If so,then tell us which one of these tribes you are of.I myself would be interested iin the song you sing .

So which tribe are you from?

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:
Revelation 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
Revelation 7:6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
Revelation 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Isaachar 12,000,
Revelation 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

If you are Israel,which tribe are you of?

I have a strong potential to be in one of the Israelite tribes but I don't think it's something to boast about, even then I still heavily doubt I'll be one of the sealed even if I'm of Israelite decent

 

[David Kent]

Are you one of the 144,000?

The early church writers, commonly called "fathers" Taught that the 144,000 were Chritisan virgins, or at least Tertullian did.

 

[usexpat97]

I think the 144,000 are of Jewish descent. I will be clear about that.

First there are the Jews in Christ. Then there is the great multitude of Gentiles in Christ. That is the whole point: that Jews and Gentiles alike can be saved. In fact if you take the idealistic camp, you can stop right there: John saw Jews and Gentiles alike in Heaven. End of story.

However, nowhere in all of this is there any indicator of anything political. Jews coming to know Christ has absolutely nothing to do with establishing some manmade principality named "Israel," ruled only by Jews (let alone Jews who do NOT know Christ). I think Jesus made that very clear during the First Coming.

 

[parousia70]

Seems several people on this board believe they are Israel and boast .If so,then tell us which one of these tribes you are of.I myself would be interested iin the song you sing .

So which tribe are you from?

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:
Revelation 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
Revelation 7:6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
Revelation 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Isaachar 12,000,
Revelation 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

If you are Israel,which tribe are you of?

Have you asked the people that YOU BELIEVE ARE ISRAEL to verify which tribe they are from before you will take their word for it, or do the people YOU BELIEVE ARE ISRAEL get a pass?

 

[parousia70]

Seems several people on this board believe they are Israel

The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

 

[usexpat97]

The New Testament tribes don't even match the Old Testament tribes.

 

[eleos1954]

Seems several people on this board believe they are Israel and boast .If so,then tell us which one of these tribes you are of.I myself would be interested iin the song you sing .

So which tribe are you from?

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:
Revelation 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
Revelation 7:6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
Revelation 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Isaachar 12,000,
Revelation 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

If you are Israel,which tribe are you of?

God's Sovereign Choice
(Genesis 25:19-28; Malachi 1:1-5)

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”a 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise (Jesus) who are regarded as offspring.

One "tribe" ... those saved in Jesus.

There are many verses in the bible that are metaphorical ... likewise some associate as being God's Israel using the term metaphorically and I don't see the wrong in that. I mean Paul did it (used metaphors) people (especially the Jews) to understand it wasn't about their physical inherited bloodline through Abraham ... because they were physically born of a Jew ... that being we all are the same through Christ and are His children without distinction.

Romans 2:29

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God Bless.

 

[Copperhead]

Wrong.
Jesus stands on Mt Zion and selects the 144k from out of the great multitude. Revelation 14:1-5
All of Revelation chapter 7 is describing earthly scenes. It is 'rapture' rubbish to think that the vast multitude of Christians are in heaven, nowhere does Rev 7 , or anywhere else in the Bible say we go to live in heaven.

Psalms 27:5 For in the time of trouble (See Jeremiah 30)
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

John 14:2-3 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

 

[Copperhead]

The New Testament tribes don't even match the Old Testament tribes.

Yes they do. Joseph was the father of Manassah and Ephraim. Jacob adopted them as sons (Genesis 48:5). When Joseph is broken into Manassah and Ephraim, there then becomes 13 tribes from which one can select the 12 names. In Revelation, Dan is left out. Joseph and Mannassah are mentioned. One can use Joseph alone, or Joseph and Mannassah, or Joseph and Ephraim, or Mannassah and Ephraim. All it takes is a little study. How much some miss when they don't study the OT.

 

[usexpat97]

All it takes is you list out the 12 tribes in Numbers, and list them side-by-side with Revelation. They don't match. Anything you study or say beyond that are just efforts to explain why that is, but the fact remains they don't match.

 

[trophy33]

How much some miss when they don't study the OT.

What, for example?

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm part of Jesus' tribe.

We are in the age of Grace. There is no Jew or Gentile. We are all one. Only saved by the blood of our Messiah.

After the Rapture, there will be the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe and those that are saved after the rapture... At the end only the 144,000 and a handful of others who have not been beheaded or killed or died, that are believers that will populate the earth for the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[parousia70]

After the Rapture, there will be the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe and those that are saved after the rapture... At the end only the 144,000 and a handful of others who have not been beheaded or killed or died, that are believers that will populate the earth for the millennial reign of Christ.

And in your scenario above, the glorified Christ sits on his throne in the Jerusalem temple for this millennial reign, and requires all humans to travel there to see him, all males be physically circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices directly at his feet for atonement of their sins and acceptance by him, nullifying his “once for all” sacrifice of himself on the cross, rendering his sacrifice wholly ineffectual from that point forward.

Yeah... nope.

 

[Blade]

"In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."
"Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise."

Are we talking FLESH or spirit? We really need to think. If we take ALL the Jewish people.. yeah.. dont even come close.. would be a spec compared to the stars. Yet what did God tell Abraham about his seed? If he could count the stars he would know how many children. Need to look at this through the eyes of a GOD

 

[keras]

Keras, you are sealing your own destiny when speak so vehemently against raptured Chrisitans going to heaven - calling it rubbish.

I am quite confident in the knowledge of my destiny. It will be in the holy Land, not heaven; as all the prophets tell us.
I call the 'rapture' rubbish and a Satanic lie, because that is what it is.
Jesus refutes it: John 3:13

 

[Copperhead]

We are in the age of Grace. There is no Jew or Gentile. We are all one. Only saved by the blood of our Messiah.

After the Rapture, there will be the 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe and those that are saved after the rapture... At the end only the 144,000 and a handful of others who have not been beheaded or killed or died, that are believers that will populate the earth for the millennial reign of Christ.

Folks seem to always avoid the rest of what Paul said.. there is neither male or female. I dare any male who is going to take this all literally to walk in and use the women’s lavatory at their fellowship this next week while the ladies are also using it, with the excuse that there is neither Jew/Gentile male/female. The Jew / Gentile thing is in a spiritual sense only within the Body of Messiah, not in the physical realm.

 

[parousia70]

Folks seem to always avoid the rest of what Paul said.. there is neither male or female. I dare any male who is going to take this all literally to walk in and use the women’s lavatory at their fellowship this next week while the ladies are also using it, with the excuse that there is neither Jew/Gentile male/female. The Jew / Gentile thing is in a spiritual sense only within the Body of Messiah, not in the physical realm.

Correct... while male and female exist in the physical realm, they do not have any "positional" difference spiritually in God's eyes. This of course also applies to Jew/Gentile. There is no difference positionally, covenantally, or spiritually in Gods eyes today.