How would the position of no end of the world be classified?

david shelby

Active Member
Mar 14, 2019
132
44
43
USA
✟2,210.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."
 

david shelby

Active Member
Mar 14, 2019
132
44
43
USA
✟2,210.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Its a good example how we can come up with any imaginable doctrine if we work with isolated verses, not thinking about its context and genre.

This is the position of many Jews, because they don't have those New Testament prophecies about the end of the world.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is the position of many Jews, because they don't have those New Testament prophecies about the end of the world.
These Jews should know that its a poetic expression...

They can end up with flath Earth, hollow Earth, young Earth, thinking with livers etc, with such attitude.

But to your question, I do not think there is a specific theological term for the position of viewing Earth as eternal...
 
Upvote 0

david shelby

Active Member
Mar 14, 2019
132
44
43
USA
✟2,210.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
These Jews should know that its a poetic expression...

They can end up with flath Earth, hollow Earth, young Earth, thinking with livers etc, with such attitude.

But to your question, I do not think there is a specific theological term for the position of eternal Earth...

What is there in the Old Testament that would convince them that there is an end of the world coming?
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What is there in the Old Testament that would convince them that there is an end of the world coming?

Generally, I do not think that Bible should be a source of such things.

But for example:

In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
But you remain the same...

Psalm 102:25
 
Upvote 0

david shelby

Active Member
Mar 14, 2019
132
44
43
USA
✟2,210.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Generally, I do not think that Bible should be a source of such things.

But for example:

In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
But you remain the same...

Psalm 102:25

But in light of Psalm 104:5, Eccl 1:4, etc. wouldn't it make more sense to include verse 24 in the context here and understand the "they" in "they will perish" as the "my days" of verse 24:

24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.


It does seem more likely he is contrasting his days, which end, with God's years, which never end, than the foundations of the earth (which other Psalms says shall never be removed) with God's years, especially since he also makes the clear claim here that (because the context here also cries out that verse 28 must be included):

28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
their descendants will be established before you.”


This seems to be talking about the earth remaining forever so that the Psalmist's descendants can be established before God forever on the earth in continuous generations. So if you include verses 24 and 28, the idea that its saying the foundations of the earth are what will be folded, just doesn't work.

In fact, the talk of God laying the foundations of the earth and the heavens, seems to be introduced as a proof of the enormity of God's years in comparison to the Psalmist's days, and not to suggest that there will be an end of either the earth or the heavens.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But in light of Psalm 104:5, Eccl 1:4, etc. wouldn't it make more sense to include verse 24 in the context here and understand the "they" in "they will perish" as the "my days" of verse 24:

24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.


It does seem more likely he is contrasting his days, which end, with God's years, which never end, than the foundations of the earth (which other Psalms says shall never be removed) with God's years, especially since he also makes the clear claim here that (because the context here also cries out that verse 28 must be included):

28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
their descendants will be established before you.”


This seems to be talking about the earth remaining forever so that the Psalmist's descendants can be established before God forever on the earth in continuous generations. So if you include verses 24 and 28, the idea that its saying the foundations of the earth are what will be folded, just doesn't work.

Trying to get a literal cosmology from rhymes is not a good thing to do, IMHO.
 
Upvote 0

david shelby

Active Member
Mar 14, 2019
132
44
43
USA
✟2,210.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Trying to get cosmology from rhymes is not a good thing to do, IMHO.

Where else would one get it in the Old Testament though? Therein is the question. And of course, Ecclesiastes 1 is not a poem. Its prose, isn't it? To that, can also be added that Moses' talk of the Passover ordinance lasting forever can be taken as showing that Moses assumed the earth lasts forever (Exodus 12:14, you can't eat lamb and mustard greens without the earth on which to grow them). That's not poetry.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Where else would one get it in the Old Testament though? Therein is the question. And of course, Ecclesiastes 1 is not a poem. Its prose, isn't it? To that, can also be added that Moses' talk of the Passover ordinance lasting forever can be taken as showing that Moses assumed the earth lasts forever (Exodus 12:14, you can't eat lamb and mustard greens without the earth on which to grow them). That's not poetry.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes etc are like adages, they contain a practical wisdom, but again, their goal is not to teach us cosmology.

They saw that people are dying and the mountains their forefathers knew are still there. Thats what they meant by "eternal". They did not try to postulate a philosophy about the universe (they did not even know there is a universe as we know it).

Why do you want to get literal, scientific cosmology from the Old Testament?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

david shelby

Active Member
Mar 14, 2019
132
44
43
USA
✟2,210.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes etc are like adages, they contain a practical wisdom, but again, their goal is not to teach us cosmology.

They saw that people are dying and the mountains their forefathers knew are still there. Thats what they meant by "eternal". They did not try to postulate a philosophy about the universe (they did not even know there is a universe as we know it).

Why do you want to get literal, scientific cosmology from the Old Testament?

So where would you get it from the New Testament then? or would your position be the same that you shouldn't try to get it from the New Testament?
 
Upvote 0

James Chairs4U

Active Member
Jan 10, 2019
53
17
70
Madison
✟13,588.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."


Hello
Sometimes reading and understanding the scripture before and after the scripture in question helps understand the meaning.


James
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So where would you get it from the New Testament then? or would your position be the same that you shouldn't try to get it from the New Testament?
Why do you not want to simply read some scienfic journal or buy a telescope etc., why do you want religious texts to tell you about physics, astronomy etc?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Archivist
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

Cosmic eternalism. It was more of a Greek idea, but was also popular in the 19th century.

This is the position of many Jews, because they don't have those New Testament prophecies about the end of the world.

Jews traditionally do believe in an eschatological future known as ʿolam ha-ba, or "the world to come", similar to Christians.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JCS 75
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,458
8,967
Florida
✟321,765.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Like if someone went with Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations comes and generations go, but the earth remains forever." And such-like passages in the Psalms like Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Is this "idealism"? Because if someone took those passages in the Old Testament correct as stated, they'd have to allegorize away all claims to there being such a thing as "the last day" in the literal sense of a last day of earth, or an end of time like an angel standing and saying "Time shall be no more."

I don't believe in the end of the world. There's no reason to. The bible describes a time of turmoil leading to a long time of history, which leads to a time when the Church loses its influence on the world, and then a change for the better.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Petros2015

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2016
5,088
4,321
52
undisclosed Bunker
✟287,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified? Idealism? Is there another term?

Not sure - when you say 'no end of the world' do you mean 'no literal second coming - it was all spiritual'?

Earth survives Sun going supernova in about 10 billion years?

I guess the below doesn't happen, or it was some allegorical very non-literal spiritual interpretation?

Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth" for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

I guess I would call it "TerraEternism" if Earth physically persists forever. I'm not sure I like this whole 'no sea' bit on New Earth. I feel like we might want to negotiate that clause.

Nothing lasts forever though.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How would the position that there will be no end of the world be classified?

Scriptural.
It would be classified as the "Scriptural Position".

Holy Scripture teaches that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

When we read the scripture "world without end, Amen" (Ephesians 3:21)
Do people think scripture is joking?

Does God think those of us who fervently affirm and pray HIS WORDS, every day, in that scripture... are joking?...

Does He think we shouldn't take his words... seriously?
That it's just Lipservice?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I don't believe in the literal destruction of the whole planet......

Jesus says in Matthew 24:3 "full end of the age" not the global world.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
4930. sunteleia from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
165. aion from the same as 104;
properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

G4930 συντέλεια (synteleia), occurs 6 times in 6 verses
5 times in Matthew and 1 time Hebrews

Matthew 24:3

Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age<165>?

Hebrews 9:26
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world,
but now once, at the full end<4930> of the ages<165>, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

This site has some views of this topic:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/t/theory_false-prophets.html
"End of the World" Prophecies
Past, Present and Future
Church "Fathers" and "Great Men"


https://www.preteristarchive.com/2003_graham_the-end-of-the-world/

So what does the Bible tell us about the end of the world and the Second Coming of Christ? Jesus said, “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man”. What were the days of Noah like? And what parallels do we see in our day?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2004_time_is-it-the-end-of-the-world-as-this-author-knows-it/
Is It the End of the World as This Author Knows It?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_world-without-end.html

With the turn of the century approaching speculation about the "end of the world" is running rampant. But does the Bible actually predict an end of time? Does the Biblical term "the last days" refer to the last days of TIME or to the last days of an AGE? We wish to take note some Bible facts.
Holy Scripture teaches that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
When we affirm and pray the scripture "world without end, Amen" (Ephesians 3:21)
Do people think scripture is joking?

Do people think I'm joking?
Good post. :amen:
.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
David, you asked for a classification. I would classify it as adiaphora.
Ahhh. Interesting
"not regarded as essential to faith............"

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Adiaphora

Adiaphoron (/ædɪˈæfərɒn/, /ædiˈæfərɒn/[1][2] plural: adiaphora from the Greek ἀδιάφορα, the negation of διάφορα - Latin differentia - meaning "not differentiable").

1313.
diaphoros dee-af'-or-os from 1308; varying; also surpassing:--differing, divers, more excellent.

Rom 12:6
Having then gifts differing<1313> according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them:
if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

In Christianity, "adiaphora" are matters not regarded as essential to faith, but nevertheless as permissible for Christians or allowed in church. What is specifically considered adiaphora depends on the specific theology in view.

Lutheranism
See also: Law and Gospel and Antinomianism § Lutheranism
The issue of what constituted adiaphora became a major dispute during the Protestant Reformation. In 1548, two years after the death of Martin Luther, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V tried to unite Catholics and Protestants in his realm with a law called the Augsburg Interim. This law was rejected by Philipp Melanchthon, on the account that it did not ensure justification by faith as a fundamental doctrine. Later he was persuaded to accept a compromise known as the Leipzig Interim, deciding that doctrinal differences not related to justification by faith were adiaphora or matters not essential for salvation. Melanchthon's compromise was vehemently opposed by Matthias Flacius and his followers in Magdeburg, who went to the opposite extreme by claiming that adiaphora cease to be adiaphora in a case of scandal and confession. By 1576 both extremes were rejected by the majority of Lutherans led by Martin Chemnitz and the formulators of the Formula of Concord.

In 1577, the Formula of Concord was crafted to settle the question of the nature of genuine adiaphora, which it defined as church rites that are "...neither commanded nor forbidden in the Word of God."[7] However, the Concord added believers should not yield even in matters of adiaphora when these are being forced upon them by the "enemies of God's Word".[8]

The Lutheran Augsburg Confession states that the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike.
===========
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0