Why there is no clear mention of trinity in the old testament?

gadar perets

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The Bible was put together by Trinitarians
If YHWH can use a donkey to talk to a man, He can use trinitarians to put the Bible together. That does not make the trinity truth.
 
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Barney2.0

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If YHWH can use a donkey to talk to a man, He can use trinitarians to put the Bible together. That does not make the trinity truth.
Not in the case of inspired scripture, only a fool would put his faith in books he believes were put together by heretics. So my suggestion is to reject the Bible like our Muslim friends or admit Trinitarians aren't heretics.
 
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gadar perets

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Not in the case of inspired scripture, only a fool would put his faith in books he believes were put together by heretics. So my suggestion is to reject the Bible like our Muslim friends or admit Trinitarians aren't heretics.
"Put together" is not what matters. The books were not written by trinitarians, but by pure monotheists who did not believe in a trinity. Besides, the books the Catholics put together differs from the books the Protestants put together and they both differ from the books the Ethiopic Christians put together. Also, the canon of the OT was already put together long before a trinitarian existed.
 
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Barney2.0

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"Put together" is not what matters. The books were not written by trinitarians, but by pure monotheists who did not believe in a trinity. Besides, the books the Catholics put together differs from the books the Protestants put together and they both differ from the books the Ethiopic Christians put together. Also, the canon of the OT was already put together long before a trinitarian existed.
Technically the Old Testament Canon was never settled completely. And yes the writers of the New Testament did believe in a Trinitarian Godhead consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as evidenced in their writings and the writings of those they taught and appointed in their stead. If your referring to the biblical canon it’s not that big of an issue among various Christian denominations and sects.
 
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gadar perets

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And yes the writers of the New Testament did believe in a Trinitarian Godhead consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as evidenced in their writings and the writings of those they taught and appointed in their stead.
I agree that the New Testament writers wrote about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They did NOT write about how they are three separate persons that comprise the one God or that they are co-equal and co-eternal. That was all added long after the NT was written.
 
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Not David

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I agree that the New Testament writers wrote about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They did NOT write about how they are three separate persons that comprise the one God or that they are co-equal and co-eternal. That was all added long after the NT was written.
The Early Church didn't rely mainly on a Bible that wasn't created yet. Ignatius, a disciple of Apostle John, believed in that:
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts."
 
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gadar perets

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The Early Church didn't rely mainly on a Bible that wasn't created yet. Ignatius, a disciple of Apostle John, believed in that:
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts."
As I said, "They did NOT write about how they are three separate persons that comprise the one God or that they are co-equal and co-eternal. That was all added long after the NT was written." Where do you see those beliefs in Ignatius' words? Also, you say he was a disciple of John, but others say that is based on tradition and legend.
 
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salt-n-light

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Old testament clearly states God is One and there is no mention of God being 3 personalities? Is it possible God was made into 3 personalities from just One personality ?

its not personalitites, but positions
 
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Barney2.0

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I agree that the New Testament writers wrote about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They did NOT write about how they are three separate persons that comprise the one God or that they are co-equal and co-eternal. That was all added long after the NT was written.
On the contrary they did write about how each person of the Trinity is God:

Father is God:

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:3


Son is God:

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

John 20:28


Holy Spirit is God:

Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

Acts 5:4

And it’s a good thing they also appointed people to explain the Triune Godhead in their stead:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
 
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gadar perets

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On the contrary they did write about how each person of the Trinity is God:
Hebrew uses "elohim" (God) in at least four ways: 1. To refer to God (YHWH), 2. To refer to human magistrates (rulers, governors, judges), 3. to angels, and 4 it is used in reference to false gods (elohim). In reference to YHWH, Elohim is a plural of majesty or intensity, but when used of human rulers, angels, or false gods, it is used in a numerical plural. Context is the major decider as to which usage is in meaning is used in any given verse of Scripture. For example, if the one true God is calling others "elohim" as in Psalm 82, then that tells us the "elohim" being referred to cannot be the one true God. Another example; Psalm 45:6 - Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. "God" is the Hebrew "elohim". However, since YHWH (Yeshua's God - Psalm 45:7) is speaking to Yeshua in verse 6, then Yeshua cannot be the one true God. He is an elohim, but not the one true Elohim, Yahweh (Yeshua's Father).

Father is God:

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:3
Yes, the Son excludes himself as the "only true God". That glory goes to Father YHWH alone.

Son is God:

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

John 20:28
Thomas did not speak English. Therefore, he did not use the word "God". He probably used "elohim", but in the sense of applying to a man as in Psalm 82 and not in the sense of thinking Yeshua was the only true Elohim. Thomas was taught that Yeshua was the Son of Elohim, not Elohim himself.

Holy Spirit is God:

Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

Acts 5:4
The Holy Spirit is the mind, power and influence of God. God (YHWH) is a Spirit. He can take a portion of His Spirit (Himself) and put it in a man. He put His Spirit in Peter (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 6:16). Therefore, to lie to Peter and to the Spirit within Peter is to lie to YHWH (God).

And it’s a good thing they also appointed people to explain the Triune Godhead in their stead:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
As I said, "They did NOT write about how they are three separate persons that comprise the one God or that they are co-equal and co-eternal." None of the quotes above say such a thing. They do mention the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but even I believe they exist. And again, they did not speak English. Therefore, they did not say "God". In reference to Yeshua as "God", they probably used "theos", but that word is similar to "elohim" in that it can apply to men.
 
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Godistruth1

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I’m pretty sure English is not your first language, God is not three personalities in Christianity, he’s three persons or three individual beings that all have the same divine nature and will, making them one deity. So saying God is one isn’t a contradiction to saying there is One God who exists as three beings as they both say there is One God.
Can you explain "One Diety" clearly. Does that One dirty has a consciousness of its own. And if it does that makes 4th one in the Trinity.
 
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Godistruth1

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Technically the Old Testament Canon was never settled completely. And yes the writers of the New Testament did believe in a Trinitarian Godhead consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as evidenced in their writings and the writings of those they taught and appointed in their stead. If your referring to the biblical canon it’s not that big of an issue among various Christian denominations and sects.
So you believe in trinity because your NT writers believed it?
 
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SinoBen

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There are clear statements, it's just masked in translation and how quickly and uncritically we read the bible. Christians are not the first to discover this either because we can see second temple Jewish speculation trying to tackle the identity of this 2nd power that shows up in scripture.

Genesis 19:24 "Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.

Zechariah 3:2 "And Yahweh said to Satan, “Yahweh rebuke you, O Satan! Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?”

(ESV, reverted The LORD to Yahweh for clarification. Note this is just a hand picked few out of a very large bunch)
I wonder why your point is not being addressed here? I think it is lost on them.
 
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Not David

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Hebrew uses "elohim" (God) in at least four ways: 1. To refer to God (YHWH), 2. To refer to human magistrates (rulers, governors, judges), 3. to angels, and 4 it is used in reference to false gods (elohim). In reference to YHWH, Elohim is a plural of majesty or intensity, but when used of human rulers, angels, or false gods, it is used in a numerical plural. Context is the major decider as to which usage is in meaning is used in any given verse of Scripture. For example, if the one true God is calling others "elohim" as in Psalm 82, then that tells us the "elohim" being referred to cannot be the one true God. Another example; Psalm 45:6 - Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. "God" is the Hebrew "elohim". However, since YHWH (Yeshua's God - Psalm 45:7) is speaking to Yeshua in verse 6, then Yeshua cannot be the one true God. He is an elohim, but not the one true Elohim, Yahweh (Yeshua's Father).


Yes, the Son excludes himself as the "only true God". That glory goes to Father YHWH alone.


Thomas did not speak English. Therefore, he did not use the word "God". He probably used "elohim", but in the sense of applying to a man as in Psalm 82 and not in the sense of thinking Yeshua was the only true Elohim. Thomas was taught that Yeshua was the Son of Elohim, not Elohim himself.


The Holy Spirit is the mind, power and influence of God. God (YHWH) is a Spirit. He can take a portion of His Spirit (Himself) and put it in a man. He put His Spirit in Peter (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 6:16). Therefore, to lie to Peter and to the Spirit within Peter is to lie to YHWH (God).


As I said, "They did NOT write about how they are three separate persons that comprise the one God or that they are co-equal and co-eternal." None of the quotes above say such a thing. They do mention the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but even I believe they exist. And again, they did not speak English. Therefore, they did not say "God". In reference to Yeshua as "God", they probably used "theos", but that word is similar to "elohim" in that it can apply to men.
They spoke Aramaic and the Gospel was written in Greek, Hebrew was very irrelevant in the New Testament.
 
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