Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[Saint Steven]

I was not saying that all Charismatics are going to hell. I was referring to the majority and not the minority.

Oh, well that's a relief. (not!)

 

[Saint Steven]

I have seen the majority of the Charismatic movement, and I can say that much of it (not all of it) is not of God.

Based on what? You are completely IGNORANT of anything to do with spiritual gifts! Can't you get that through your thick skull?

 

[Saint Steven]

That is what was wrong with your accusation against me.

What about your misuse of God's Word?
"narrow is the way" has NOTHING to do with the Charismatic and Pentecostal renewal.

 

[JAL]

You are a bit off there about the scriptures, it says:
12 God’s word is alive and working. It is sharper than the sharpest sword and cuts all the way into us. It cuts deep to the place where the soul and the spirit are joined. God’s word cuts to the center of our joints and our bones. It judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts.13 Nothing in all the world can be hidden from God. He can clearly see all things. Everything is open before him. And to him we must explain the way we have lived.

Nope. That passage is talking about the divine Word. Your textbook isn't alive.

I remember a time when i was passing a very hard time, and in a impulse i decided to read the bible with all my strenght and with my voice too, believing everything that passed my mind about what i was reading, after a while i actually felt very clean inside, the bible is not just a book, it contains words of God that are actually alive.

First of all, you'll hear many similar testimonies about the Koran. Secondly, at times when you think the written Word had a positive effect, it may be the Holy Spirit at work. Thirdly, books are not alive. To make such a seeming insanity-claim places a HUGE burden of proof on you, firstly to explain what that seemingly incoherent claim even MEANS, and secondly to then DEMONSTRATE the veracity of the claim. Fourthly, I'll give the same challange to you. If the writtten Word is so 'alive', would you be content with the divine Word abandoning this universe, consigning you to the book as your only help, recourse,and resource?

 

[NBB]

Nope. That passage is talking about the divine Word. Your textbook isn't alive.

First of all, you'll hear many similar testimonies about the Koran. Secondly, at times when you think the written Word had a positive effect, it may be the Holy Spirit at work. Thirdly, books are not alive. To make such a seeming insanity-claim places a HUGE burden of proof on you, firstly to explain what that seemingly incoherent claim even MEANS, and secondly to then DEMONSTRATE the veracity of the claim. Fourthly, I'll give the same challange to you. If the writtten Word is so 'alive', would you be content with the divine Word abandoning this universe, consigning you to the book as your only help, recourse,and resource?

What i say the words of God written in the bible when read have an effect, made by God obviously. This cleansing or ministering effect is believed by many, and when i felt very clean was because the words in the bible made an effect in me through God clearly.

 

[JAL]

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

Here's another proof of volumetric sanctification, following up on my earlier proofs (e.g. 507, 546, 547, 551).
- As argued earlier, a prophetic anointing repeats due to efficacious grace, that is, the divine Word is released to efficaciously perform an immediate job (hence failure is impossible) and then returns to God(Isa 55:11). He doesn't sit around as a dormant potential awaiting the next task.

Efficacious grace also implies volumetric sanctification. During conversion, the divine Word targets one PART of the heart, abiding there to efficaciously impart and sustain holiness. Fresh outpourings of the divine Word are needed upon the REST of the heart for sanctification.

Why wasn't the original outpouring sufficient for sanctification? Again, that would imply that it was sent with a dormant purpose, waiting around to later sanctify the REST of the heart. By divine fiat, the distribution of the divine Word is efficacious rather than dormant(Isa 55:11).

 

[1stcenturylady]

I would have to be convinced biblically. The verses I proposed on Cessationism in the OP are really clear to me. Does that mean I could not be wrong? Surely not. I like it when another person challenges what I think on Scripture. It helps me to pray more about it and to dig in God's Word more.

In any event, may the Lord's love shine upon you today (even if we disagree).

One thing may help you. That is the word "cease," pauo in 1 Corinthians 13, that cessationists are basing most of their theory on. That word is used three times in the New Testament and it means "pause." Tongues, as well as the other gifts, will only pause, but never be completely obliterated from this covenant, but it is according to the prophecy in Joel 2 that started on the Day of Pentecost when the covenant came into effect. There it speaks of the "early and latter rain". That is precisely what we see in church history and is according to Scripture, not myths. Pentecost was the early rain, and these last days are the latter rain. This is also shown in another end time prophecy in Hosea 6:1-3.

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

This prophecy is 2 days = 2000 years, and the 1000 year Millennium.

Amillenniumists obviously never read or understood this prophecy for Israel.

 

[JAL]

What i say the words of God written in the bible when read have an effect, made by God obviously. This cleansing or ministering effect is believed by many, and when i felt very clean was because the words in the bible made an effect in me through God clearly.

Pleaes review my original post. I said it DOES have an effect. Every book has persuasive power and, as such, potentially positive and negative effects.

When the NT tells us that the law (the written Word) is powerless to sanctify (Rom 8:3), it is referring to TRANSFORMATIVE power (in the sense of regeneration).

A book can APPEAL to the inner man, that is, it can ASK HIM to change (which can and does change lives to a limited extent), but it cannot directly reach in and supernaturally make him a new creation.

Paul spread the gospel halfway around the world - on foot - with no broadcasting. How was he so effective? Revival. The power of actual transformation. By comparison to THAT high standard of power, Paul viewed the written Word/law as essentially powerless.

So it's a question of standards. Yes if you're referring to the low standard called 'persuasive power', the Bible is powerful by that low bar. So is the Koran.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You discarded him because he met with Benny Hinn, Claudio Freidzon, but to say he does things by devil or is a physic is taking it too far and not reasonable at all, a 'kingdom divided in itself cannot last' he also expulsed an evil spirit from me that i had from when i was young. Sometimes our bad suspicion goes too far.

Ah, now I remember. That was a long time ago since we last talked about him.

Anyways, he was involved in holy laughter, and in teaching the Prosperity gospel; He is in league with Benny Hinn (Note: Benny Hinn is known for the prosperity gospel / Word of Faith movement - which are clear unbiblical teachings).

Yes the church believes in the trinity

That's a plus. If you are not aware of it, there are One-ness Pentecostals (i.e. Folks who are Charismatic and yet, they deny the Trinity).

Yes they allow to women to speak but they are not supposed to have authority over her husband. They just can speak.

This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. A woman is to keep silent in the church in speaking in authority over other believing men.

I never saw an interpretation of tongues

This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. Paul says a tongues speaker is to keep silent if there is no interpreter.

No they don't do prosperity gospel or word of faith.

I am sorry to inform you that he is in league with a clear prosperity preacher and Word of Faith teacher (i.e. Benny Hinn).

I never witness a foreign tongue spoken language.

Real foreign languages is the only version of tongues that was actually spoken in the Bible. There is no such thing as ecstatic utterances mentioned clearly in the Bible. Do you not think it is odd that the real foreign tongues speaking of other languages is absent and the version of tongues that is not clearly mentioned in the Bible is used. Granted, while I am not discounting God can operate in such a way, do you not think it is odd that the biblical version of tongues that is clearly described is nowhere to be found and yet the unclear version of tongues is shown instead? Seems kind of suspicious to me.

I don't care if holy laugther is true or not, i think it may be.

But it is not. God is not the author of confusion.
Nowhere in the Bible does God make other humans to life by the Spirit.

People revolting on the floor gives me a bad feel, and i never witnessed that in our church.
I don't like that shakes in the head no, probably something 'weird' going on, i never witnessed that either.

Yet, others think these things are perfectly normal.

About healings
The pastor wife was declared 'done' by the doctors years ago because of cancer of uterus she was healed, i don't say someone Peter style done it but, i don't hear of much healings, somtimes there is testimonies that God healed someone, i actually don't think God has healed me of anything i know in any evident miracoulous way.

I believe God can heal if we pray. I am talking about the gifting of miracles (Which you appear to agree that you have not see anything like that). This means that this gift is not operating in the same way as we see in the early church. For surely some church or some group or individual would report doing some amazing things and we would know about it because of the internet.

I don't speak in tongues.

Because it is a gifting of the Spirit that was only for the early church.
Note: Keep in mind that I am also saying that I could be wrong, and it is possible some unknown group that is not so public could be operating by God's power. I am just not aware of this group.

 

[NBB]

Pleaes review my original post. I said it DOES have an effect. Every book has persuasive power and, as such, potentially positive and negative effects.

When the NT tells us that the law (the written Word) is powerless to sanctify (Rom 8:3), it is referring to TRANSFORMATIVE power (in the sense of regeneration).

A book can APPEAL to the inner man, that is, it can ASK HIM to change (which can and does change lives to a limited extent), but it cannot directly reach in and supernaturally make him a new creation.

Paul spread the gospel halfway around the world - on foot - with no broadcasting. How was he so effective? Revival. The power of actual transformation. By comparison to THAT high standard of power, Paul viewed the written Word/law as essentially powerless.

So it's a question of standards. Yes if you're referring to the low standard called 'persuasive power', the Bible is powerful by that low bar. So is the Koran.

I believe that the bible is alive and working like it says, because of God, not because the letter have some own power of course, something else we disagree on, is ok we don't have to discuss it to death we just disagree.

 

[SkyWriting]

No. Paul is writing as per under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps.

 

[JAL]

What i say the words of God written in the bible when read have an effect, made by God obviously. This cleansing or ministering effect is believed by many, and when i felt very clean was because the words in the bible made an effect in me through God clearly.

Maybe I can illustrate the point this way. Suppose you invented a drug designed to have very beneficial and detectable effects. So you decide to test it out on lab rats first. Half of them will take the drug, the other half a placebo or nothing at all. After some time you are disappointed. You detect little or no improvement in either group. What's your conclusion? The drug wasn't as effective as you hoped.

Let's apply this to the Bible. The world, in large part, has two kinds of people:
(1) Those who ingest the Bible every Sunday, at least.
(2) Those who do not (this is the placebo group).
Now compare the two groups. Take a look at the divorce rate. It's the same!

When I was in college, I used to attend Christian conferences in other cities. You know what I was told? Hotels were reporting a per-capita INCREASE in inappropriate contentographic consumption when the conferences were in town. Which is precisely what Paul warned us about - he said the written Word/law can have a tendency to EXACERBATE sinful passions (Rom 7) and therefore is a ministry of death (2Cor 3).

The Bible is actually safest during revival because the strong presence of the Spirit tends to protect you from the negative effects of the Law/Word.

Again, this is why Paul was FURIOUS with the Galatians. They had become law-centric. They should have been focused on receiving outpourings from on high, as I argued earlier.

Andrew Murray (my favorite writer) stated it well, 'The written Word is powerless".

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. A woman is to keep silent in the church in speaking in authority over other believing men.

Did you know that those two verses are considered uninspired additions at a latter date. Read the flow without those verses.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints...36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[JAL]

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

One last proof of volumetric sanctification, following up on posts 507, 546, 547, 551, 572.

Holiness is the sum total of God's perfections (knowledge, skills, purity, benevolence, etc). This means God alone is holy (Rev 15:4).

In what sense, then, are men made holy? Only in the sense of derived holiness. Meaning what? An object is holy, in a derived sense, if God has taken up an abode there AND is exerting a controlling influence over it. As Andrew Murray so aptly put it, 'Obedience is not holiness', but rather, 'Where God is, there is holiness'.

Examples? Sure.

(1) 'Put off thy sandals - you are standing on holy ground'. Was the ground 'obeying God'? Is holiness obedience? Nope. Rather, the divine Fire in the burning bush was radiating holy Light-quanta even at the ground under Moses' feet. The ground was made holy.

(2) God 'sanctified' the tabernacle by filling it with the Cloud of glory. The word 'sanctified' means 'made holy'. Was the tabernacle 'obeying God'? Nope.

(3)Radiation is strongest at its source. Therefore the inner tabernacle, where Moses spoke with God face to face was called the MOST Holy Place. All the equipment and utensils were holy as well, but not as holy as the MOST Holy Place.

Now for the million dollar question. How much of the human body does God want holy? All of it! Therefore sanctification can ONLY be defined volumetrically, that is, as the gradual filling of the human body, from head to toe, with the divine Glory. Literally, your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

[NBB]

Ah, now I remember. That was a long time ago since we last talked about him.

Anyways, he was involved in holy laughter, and in teaching the Prosperity gospel; He is in league with Benny Hinn (Note: Benny Hinn is known for the prosperity gospel / Word of Faith movement - which are clear unbiblical teachings).



That's a plus. If you are not aware of it, there are One-ness Pentecostals (i.e. Folks who are Charismatic and yet, they deny the Trinity).



This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. A woman is to keep silent in the church in speaking in authority over other believing men.



This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. Paul says a tongues speaker is to keep silent if there is no interpreter.



I am sorry to inform you that he is in league with a clear prosperity preacher and Word of Faith teacher (i.e. Benny Hinn).



Real foreign languages is the only version of tongues that was actually spoken in the Bible. There is no such thing as ecstatic utterances mentioned clearly in the Bible. Do you not think it is odd that the real foreign tongues speaking of other languages is absent and the version of tongues that is not clearly mentioned in the Bible is used. Granted, while I am not discounting God can operate in such a way, do you not think it is odd that the biblical version of tongues that is clearly described is nowhere to be found and yet the unclear version of tongues is shown instead? Seems kind of suspicious to me.



But it is not. God is not the author of confusion.
Nowhere in the Bible does God make other humans to life by the Spirit.



Yet, others think these things are perfectly normal.



I believe God can heal if we pray. I am talking about the gifting of miracles (Which you appear to agree that you have not see anything like that). This means that this gift is not operating in the same way as we see in the early church. For surely some church or some group or individual would report doing some amazing things and we would know about it because of the internet.



Because it is a gifting of the Spirit that was only for the early church.
Note: Keep in mind that I am also saying that I could be wrong, and it is possible some unknown group that is not so public could be operating by God's power. I am just not aware of this group.

I was talking about my church not the church of Freidzon but about him don't tell me he is physic or a person with abilities from the devil please. At least he is preaching the gospel about Jesus and helping the poor, and i told you what he did to me. Because of that i can't say anything else. You should easy the judgement there if you don't know how things really are.

 

[NBB]

Ah, now I remember. That was a long time ago since we last talked about him.

Anyways, he was involved in holy laughter, and in teaching the Prosperity gospel; He is in league with Benny Hinn (Note: Benny Hinn is known for the prosperity gospel / Word of Faith movement - which are clear unbiblical teachings).



That's a plus. If you are not aware of it, there are One-ness Pentecostals (i.e. Folks who are Charismatic and yet, they deny the Trinity).



This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. A woman is to keep silent in the church in speaking in authority over other believing men.



This is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14. Paul says a tongues speaker is to keep silent if there is no interpreter.



I am sorry to inform you that he is in league with a clear prosperity preacher and Word of Faith teacher (i.e. Benny Hinn).



Real foreign languages is the only version of tongues that was actually spoken in the Bible. There is no such thing as ecstatic utterances mentioned clearly in the Bible. Do you not think it is odd that the real foreign tongues speaking of other languages is absent and the version of tongues that is not clearly mentioned in the Bible is used. Granted, while I am not discounting God can operate in such a way, do you not think it is odd that the biblical version of tongues that is clearly described is nowhere to be found and yet the unclear version of tongues is shown instead? Seems kind of suspicious to me.



But it is not. God is not the author of confusion.
Nowhere in the Bible does God make other humans to life by the Spirit.



Yet, others think these things are perfectly normal.



I believe God can heal if we pray. I am talking about the gifting of miracles (Which you appear to agree that you have not see anything like that). This means that this gift is not operating in the same way as we see in the early church. For surely some church or some group or individual would report doing some amazing things and we would know about it because of the internet.



Because it is a gifting of the Spirit that was only for the early church.
Note: Keep in mind that I am also saying that I could be wrong, and it is possible some unknown group that is not so public could be operating by God's power. I am just not aware of this group.

This of putting charismatics under the impression that are all deceived, and all of what they say about gifts and manifestations in their churches are a lie and not of the Holy spirit, is dangerous stuff for the people who hold this view, they may be speaking against God, myself i'm sure they are speaking against God, because the Holy spirit did to me a lot of things in a charismatic / pentecostal church.

 

[David Kent]

That's a cheap shot. The occult?
There is nothing new about shaking and quaking.
You have heard of the Shakers and the Quakers? (furniture and oat meal)

The shakers were heretics, the quakers not christians.

 

[Saint Steven]

The shakers were heretics, the quakers not christians.

Todays Pentecostals and Charismatics are considered heretics and not Christians.
What's your point?

Orthodoxy will never accept anything outside the status quo.
Jesus was a heretic by the standard of the day.

And for the record, both the Shakers and the Quakers were Christians.
Perhaps not by Baptist standards, but...

If you already claim that Pentecostals and Charismatics are not Christians,
then any similarities with the Shakers and the Quakers is irrelevant.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<J0>...However, they are in err because they claim certain words in the original languages changes the meaning of our English translations in our bibles. In essence, they know better than the translators of the Bible. This kind of handling of the Scriptures never sits well with me because it looks like folks merely trying to change the Bible using the "original languages" card (When in reality nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times; Only in believing God's Word that says that had preserved His Word for our generation today is their hope and trust in what His Word plainly says). For we received the word not in the wisdom of men, but as the very words of God (See 1 Thessalonians 2:13)....<J0>

end

I have asked this question before but received no answer. If to quote you, "nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times;" How were the KJV translators able to give, I assume you believe, a 100% accurate translation 1600 years +/- after Jesus walked this earth?
.....As I said before Greek has been the language of Greece since 100s of years before Jesus and it remains the language of Greece today. While there might be some changes in the languages since NT times unless you have credible, verifiable , historical evidence otherwise the Greeks know exactly what every word in the NT means. And I am quite certain that you have no such evidence.
.....There was a time when Hebrew was not the day to day language of the Jews but it always remained the language of prayer and the synagogue. Read this article from the Jewish Encyclopedia instead whatever biased writings you have been reading.
HEBREW LANGUAGE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
.....Also you might want to read about the Rosetta stone.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

<J0>...However, they are in err because they claim certain words in the original languages changes the meaning of our English translations in our bibles. In essence, they know better than the translators of the Bible. This kind of handling of the Scriptures never sits well with me because it looks like folks merely trying to change the Bible using the "original languages" card (When in reality nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times; Only in believing God's Word that says that had preserved His Word for our generation today is their hope and trust in what His Word plainly says). For we received the word not in the wisdom of men, but as the very words of God (See 1 Thessalonians 2:13)....<J0>
I have asked this question before but received no answer. If to quote you, "nobody knows biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek like those people who lived during bible times;" How were the KJV translators able to give, I assume you believe, a 100% accurate translation 1600 years +/- after Jesus walked this earth?
.....As I said before Greek has been the language of Greece since 100s of years before Jesus and it remains the language of Greece today. While there might be some changes in the languages since NT times unless you have credible, verifiable , historical evidence otherwise the Greeks know exactly what every word in the NT means. And I am quite certain that you have no such evidence.
.....There was a time when Hebrew was not the day to day language of the Jews but it always remained the language of prayer and the synagogue. Read this article from the Jewish Encyclopedia instead whatever biased writings you have been reading.
HEBREW LANGUAGE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
.....Also you might want to read about the Rosetta stone.

No offense, but this really is not the topic of the thread.

Blessings to you in the Lord.