Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[JAL]

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

Neglect of volume saddles evangelical theologians with a blatant contradiction, namely, that an indivisible soul could have no sinful nature. All sides agree that regeneration is an impartation of holiness. What is holy is not sinful. For example when we say that God is holy, we never find it necessary to add, 'And also he doesn't have a sinful nature'. That second part was already implied.

The only way to resolve the contradiction is to define the soul as volumetric. At the outset, the Spirit was sprinkled only upon PART of your heart. That's the new birth. That part is holy - the old is gone, the new is come (2Cor 5:17). The REST of your heart is the sinful nature. Sanctification is a matter of receiving incremental outpourings, upon that sinful heart, as to gradually FILL you with the Holy Spirit. This is precisely Paul's argument in Galatians 3, as we shall see.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please forgive me in advance for my poor formatting. I’m using my phone and haven’t figured out an easy way to organize quotes in a post. I’m going to try to respond as best I can to each of your points. I will try not to be too overzealous as I am a pretty hard core continualist who believes in the five fold ministry.

It is about seeing Jesus face to face. But it is about seeing His reflection in the mirror of God's Word when we conform to His image in this life. So when we look into the Bible, we see more of Jesus in our life. We are told to mature in this life and not the next one. 1 Corinthians 13 parallels James 1 on what the "perfect" is. The "perfect" is the perfect Law of liberty (i.e. the mirror/Bible). We see Jesus in our lives when we read the Bible and walk in His good ways.

Also, verse 12 is talking about looking into a glass (a mirror) darkly. When we see our image in the mirror face to face (our reflection, or image of Christ vs. our real face). This is compared to knowledge and knowing in part. The Bible is about knowledge of the faith. The Bible was not complete yet at the time of Paul writing to the Corinthians. Paul says that what he writes should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (See 1 Corinthians 14:37). Commands is what it is all about. The "perfect." James talks about the perfect law of liberty and he also talks about the Word of God being like a mirror, too (See James 1).

1. It seems as though Paul IS saying just that. He says that we only see in part right now, like babes, but, when that which is perfect comes, in verse 12 he describes this as “face to face”, we will have knowledge in full and likens this to wisdom of a grown man. What makes this stand out to me is the use of the words “face to face”. This has very strong connotations of seeing Jesus in His fullness, IE the 2nd Coming and in Heaven.

It is not in the next life we mature, but it is in this one. Paul says:

"Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men." (1 Corinthians 14:20).

"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14).

2. This is purely speculation and taking verses out of context. Perfect may be neuter, but that does not prove that it refers to the Bible. It just as easily could be referring to the afterlife. In fact I find this far more likely. The imagery of glass and mirrors ties strongly into his use of the phrase “face to face”, which, again, has strong connotations of when we see Jesus face to face in the afterlife.

There is no mirror if you are seeing Jesus face to face for real. The mirror is merely more clear and not taken away. The Bible says we are to conform to the image of Christ.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29).

3. Tongues are not only for a sign. You cite scriptures that state that they are for a sign but there are far more purposes listed in scripture, such as edification, and also the Holy Spirit interceding for us when we know not what to pray for.

Tongues are only for edification IF there is only an interpreter. Tongues by themselves are for a sign and they mean judgment to the Jew. Most Charismatic churches I have heard about, witnessed via by video, and by the reports of Charismatics themselves does not always include an interpreter (Which is not biblical). They also allow women to speak in tongues over having authority of believing men (Which is not biblical). They also do not speak by 2-3 at most and take turns in doing so, either. They also are involved in ecstatic utterances (i.e. not a real language or actual words), and they are not speaking real foreign languages (Which is what tongues really was).

4. That is an interpretation. This is not proof. You make an interesting point bringing up Jesus and a period of silence in miracles. I will bring this back up in a later point.
And to state that the need for tongues and miracles has ceased today is a massive assertion to make.

No. It is not an interpretation but it is yet another link in the chain of biblical evidences that show that Cessationism is true. The fact that we see that according to the Bible there are periods of silence after Moses, and Elijah and even towards the end of Paul's life is not a coincidence.

5. The argument from silence is flawed in and of itself, and this is a rather weak argument of silence here. Just because Paul doesn’t mention the gifts in these later letters does not mean they stopped. If anything he just no longer needed to address issues with them after his initial writings on how to use them correctly.

No. It is not an argument from silence. We are able to piece together a logical conclusion based on the biblical data that we have. If Paul was able to heal like he used to, then he would not tell Timothy to drink a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach, but he would have sent a healing cloth to him like he did others. Either that or he would have told Timothy to visit a healer or Paul would have had a healer visit him. Even Paul had a thorn in his own flesh. Again, why could he not heal this? What happened to his power or ability to heal that he had before? This means that his power or ability from God was only temporary and for a very specific cause or reason. This was to confirm the Word by the working of miracles (Mark 16:20); The miracles were a way a way to authenticate the messenger (Jesus) and His followers (See Hebrews 2:3-4).

6. But we will not attain fullness of knowledge until we reach the ‘end’ of eternity. For that is how long it will take for us to fully comprehend an infinite being, in our case, God.

Paul is not trying to get us to be concerned about our next life. He wants us to be concerned about this life here and to live the faith by God's Word. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work. Paul is concerned with how we live now and not the next one.

7. According to what verse? This “it would happen 100% of the time” argument comes up a lot but I have yet to come across any verses that truly back it up. In fact in Marks gospel there is an instance where it clearly states that Jesus was unable to perform any miracles in a town because of the people’s unbelief.

There are many who desire to be healed today, and yet nobody today can heal like the early apostles did.

Peter:

12 "The apostles were performing many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers were meeting regularly at the Temple in the area known as Solomon’s Colonnade.
13 But no one else dared to join them, even though all the people had high regard for them.
14 Yet more and more people believed and were brought to the Lord—crowds of both men and women.
15 As a result of the apostles’ work, sick people were brought out into the streets on beds and mats so that Peter’s shadow might fall across some of them as he went by.
16 Crowds came from the villages around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those possessed by evil spirits, and they were all healed." (Acts of the Apostles 5:12-15) (NLT).

Paul:

11 "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them." (Acts of the Apostles 19:11-12).

8 "And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed: " (Acts of the Apostles 28:8-9).

As for unbelief being the cause of a people not believing.

In Acts of the Apostles 20:9-12, Paul brings back a man from the dead. He heals him of death. Surely this was not based upon the dead person's faith in order for them to be healed.

8. That verse in Revelation refers to the written scroll, and has absolutely nothing to do with prophesy. This verse is taken out of context all the time for so many reasons. May I be so bold to say that it isn’t even talking about the Bible in its entirety, but the book of Revelation itself. Some scholars believe that Revelation pre-dates Jude. If that’s the case, then Jude would be in trouble!

Do you have a scroll of Revelation?
No.
Do Christians today have scrolls of the Bible?
No.
God knows the future, and He knew that His Word would be preserved in a book called, "the Holy Bible." So yes, while John wrote on a scroll, God had John write ahead of his time.
The word "biblion" (βιβλίον) can refer to a written document or a writing.

The book of Revelation is the last book of the Bible.
It even has an ending that ties up the whole of the Bible with our future.
Also, scholars who have added to the Bible have lost their voices.
These are plagues from other parts of the Bible and not Revelation.

Again, look at the links for yourself.
Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
Bible Correctors lose Voice

I mean, do you think that these men losing their voice is just a sham?
If so, then what purpose would it serve the devil to have men of GOD have trust alone in God's Word (i.e. Sola Scriptura)? So what you propose does not make any sense.

In fact, lets say Revelation 22:18 is talking exclusively about the book of Revelation. If this is the case, can you tell me of anyone violating this rule and some plague from the book of Revelation has cursed them?

9. Except the scripture explicitly includes apostles and prophets along with pastors, teachers, and evangelists in the five fold ministry of the church. Again you are nitpicking verses and taking them out of context to fit your pre-determined view that apostles and prophets are no more. The requirement for being a part of the 12 disciples/apostles of Christ was to see Him resurrected. This does not refute apostolic succession. Technically Paul didn’t witness the physical risen Christ. He had a post-ascension encounter on the Damascus road, akin to a vision. There is no verse that says something similar can’t happen today. And if Paul equates this to seeing the risen Christ, then this can easily become an argument FOR the apostolic, rather than against it.

No. Paul calls himself the last apostle. He says, "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" It was one of the requirements in being an apostle to see the risen Christ.... so no. Also, Scripture says that the saints are of the household of God and they are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone:

19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " (Ephesians 2:19-20).

10. But the Word says we are not to forbid the speaking of tongues. Moreover, the Bible says we are to “earnestly seek the gift of prophecy”. And it never said ‘until it stops then don’t do it anymore’.

Jesus told a man to reconcile with his brother before offering his animal sacrifice.

"Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." (Matthew 5:4).

In other words, Jesus was commanding animal sacrifices, but that does not mean we offer animal sacrifices today under the New Covenant.

We know that the miraculous gifts have ceased because:

(a) The Bible points to that conclusion with many verses.
(b) We don't see them operating exactly the early church did them today.

Nobody is being healed by clothes. Nobody is being brought back from the dead. Nobody is being healed by a believer just speaking.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@JAL

Please stop quoting my posts.
I am not interested in having this discussion with you.

In any event, may God bless you.

 

[JAL]

@JAL

Please stop quoting my posts.
I am not interested in having this discussion with you.

In any event, may God bless you.

You cannot rightfully claim to have 'defended' or 'established' your views if you selectively address objections. On the contrary, you lead all of us to suspect that you CANNOT defend against them. The more I post, the more I am able to expose this fact. So yes, I will keep citing your erroneous conclusions, and refuting them.

 

[JAL]

It does not make sense to have multiple fillings of the Spirit. A receiving of more (or fulness) of the Spirit for a specific task or function is different. The verse will actually say that such a thing is happening. But there is no second refillings or third refillings. There is only one and that is at the point a person is saved by Jesus Christ genuinely (See Ephesians 1:13-14).

At post 547 I demonstrated that:
(1) The new birth is an outpouring upon PART of the heart, making that part holy
(2) Sanctification consists in waiting in prayer for outpourings upon the rest of the heart, gradually filling it with holiness.

This means - sanctification is passive! Each outpouring is instant holiness! Sanctification is NOT by human effort! Hence Paul's fury with the Galatians:

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made mature by human effort?" (Gal 3:3);

"Faith cometh by hearing." The Spirit, as Inward Witness, provides a high-quality, inspired faith called justifying faith. The rest of your heart, TECHNICALLY, isn't justified by faith as yet because it lacks the outpouring. Each incremental outpouring counts as another justification-by-faith.

Don't believe me, believe Paul. Here I'm building on my earlier analysis of Gal 3 at post 379. In this chapter, Paul refers to justification by faith - the FIRST justification? Or the LATER ones, for sanctification? Verse 3 is already clue - he's REALLY talking about sanctificatoin:

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made mature by human effort?" (Gal 3:3);

Paul's argument is simple. How had you begun? By receiving an outpouring. How then shall you continue unto maturity? In the same way you had begun! By receiving more outpourings! It's not by human effort! Sanctification is passive! (We already know this from historic revivals where entire communities became instantly devout/holy overnight, due to the outpourings).

"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made mature by human effort?...He who supplies you His Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he do it by works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Consider Abraham." (Gal 3:3-5).

That last pair of words is among the most important in the NT. As I noted in the earlier discussoin of Gal 3 at post 379, he sends us back to Abraham's experience at Gen 15 where, according to Paul, Abraham was justified by faith. Now for the million dollar question, was the incident at Gen 15 Abrham's FIRST justification by faith? No! Abraham was already saved by faith before then! This is Paul's proof that sanctification does indeed consist of incremental justifications! Which I had already proven LOGICALLY!

The outpouring at Gen 15, then, was for Abraham's SANCTIFICATION even though Paul refers to it - in both Romans and Galatians - as his JUSTIFICATION. Let's go back there:

"The Word of the Lord came to Abraham in a vision [speaking promises]...Abraham believed [the spoken promises], and he credited it to him as righteousness" (Gen 15:1-6).

This is Paul's example of what it means to receive the Spirit (an outpouring of the Word) by the hearing of faith (he heard God's voice). When God speaks, he releases an outpouring of the Word from His mouth (Isa 55:11). Therefore any of the following approaches will sanctify us:

(1) Praying for God to speak (i.e. seeking direct revelation), especially to speak promises (see my earlier discussion on Gal3).
(2) Praying for outpourings.
(3) Praying for revival.

Abraham is the perfect paradigm, of sanctification, for all believers, of both testaments.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Show me a church today who can heal like the early church did if Continuationism is true.
In fact, can you imagine if people knew about if there was an apostle Paul (in his early ministry) who was alive today? We have a thing called the internet and it would not take long for people to discover if somebody was truly being healed for real by actual miracles like the apostle Paul did. Even Jesus tried to keep miracles a secret at certain times (By him telling them not to say anything), and yet people still told others anyways.

Show me a church today who is obeying all of 1 Corinthians 14 correctly.
This means:

(a) No women having speaking authority over a group of believing men.
(b) 2-3 at most can speak at tongues.
(c) Each tongue speaker must wait their turn to each speak. They cannot all speak at once.
(d) There must be an interpreter.
(e) If there is no interpret, they are to keep silent.​

Show me a church today who has apostles like the early church.

If prophecy of future events is still taking place, then who is truly telling prophecy today with 100% accuracy like the Bible?

People have said they like the Charismatic churches based on how it makes them feel.

But faith is not about a feeling.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).

I would not want to trade in my Bible for an experience.

If you and or your church is truly operating by the power of God, ask where are the healers at. Ask where are those who speak in foreign tongues at along with an interpreter accurately interpreting.

These are just some of the problems I see.
The verses on Cessationism make it even more clearer on this issue.

I say this all in love and with the hope folks will pray about it and seek after the truth objectively both with God's Word and within their own church.

 

[JAL]

To all:

Show me a church today who can heal like the early church did if Continuationism is true.
In fact, can you imagine if people knew about if there was an apostle Paul (in his early ministry) who was alive today? We have a thing called the internet and it would not take long for people to discover if somebody was truly being healed for real by actual miracles like the apostle Paul did. Even Jesus tried to keep miracles a secret at certain times (By him telling them not to say anything), and yet people still told others anyways.

Show me a church today who is obeying all of 1 Corinthians 14 correctly.
This means:

(a) No women having speaking authority over a group of believing men.
(b) 2-3 at most can speak at tongues.
(c) Each tongue speaker must wait their turn to each speak. They cannot all speak at once.
(d) There must be an interpreter.
(e) If there is no interpret, they are to keep silent.​

Show me a church today who has apostles like the early church.

If prophecy of future events is still taking place, then who is truly telling prophecy today with 100% accuracy like the Bible?

People have said they like the Charismatic churches based on how it makes them feel.

But faith is not about a feeling.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).

I would not want to trade in my Bible for an experience.

If you and or your church is truly operating by the power of God, ask where are the healers at. Ask where are those who speak in foreign tongues at along with an interpreter accurately interpreting.

These are just some of the problems I see.
The verses on Cessationism make it even more clearer on this issue.

I say this all in love and with the hope folks will pray about it and seek after the truth objectively both with God's Word and within their own church.

I honestly wish you had created two separate threads.
(1) Is the modern charismatic movement authentic?
(2) What did Paul, and Scripture at large, have to say about the gifts?

Because I'd be the first to agree with you, that many charismatic churches are rife with inauthenticity. But that fact has little to do with what Paul teaches us about the gifts.

And even when you do focus on Scripture, you consistently draw POSSIBLE conclusions without any real logical rigor. Only those Christians sharing your anticharismatic bias are going to read those verses the way that you read them.

 

[Saint Steven]

Gifts are not a required part of one's salvation.

While I agree in general, I would say it is a matter of stewardship. (parable of the talents)
What if God gave you extraordinary gifts that you never used?

My posture is to be open to anything God might want me to do.
God has called me to use miraculous gifts only one time.
Which I thought was very strange.
But I learned that we don't own the gifts and that
I just needed to be 100 percent available.

 

[JAL]

If prophecy of future events is still taking place, then who is truly telling prophecy today with 100% accuracy like the Bible?

You keep alluding to prophecy as foretelling. As far as I know,99% of prophetic utterances aren't foretelling but are rather messages of encouragement, guidance, direction, witnessing/evangelism, and so on. And that's just the public messages. I would imagine that prophets also receive plenty of revelation solely for the purpose of Father-child intimacy and conversation (somewhat like going out to lunch with your Dad) which is never published.

Seems to me that you harp on foretelling mostly because you think it's an easy angle of attack against the charismatic movement.

 

[JAL]

I would not want to trade in my Bible for an experience.

Do you even realize what you just said?

Contrast an ordinary Christian with, say, a bible scholar who knows tons of doctrine but has never met the Lord personally. He's not saved. You'd rather be the scholar? That statement suggests that you still don't understand salvation, despite everything I've already said about the Inward Witness, on this thread. That's okay. As I find time, I'll try to bring you up to speed.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not about picking on a people, but it is about discussing what I believe to be the truth. For truth is important. So the Word of God will help us to find the truth on this matter.

I also did not say "May God bless you (while you burn)."
Those are your words, and not mine.

Please be kind.
For I did not attack you personally.
I am only against the belief or the position held.

Hey... the (while you burn) was OUTSIDE the quotes.

What were you claiming when you wrote this?
"Charismatics also make up 500 million Christians of our day. Did not Jesus say, "narrow is the way"?"

Are you not questioning the salvation of 500 million Charismatic Christians?
(if not outright condemning! - not to mention misusing God's Word!)
And if they aren't saved, what is their eternal destination?

And you still stand behind that? ???

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is actually about being cautious with my own soul. If a Charismatic church is not obeying God's Word when it comes to the gifts, then they are not operating by the power of God; Especially if they have been in operating by incorrect means for so long of a time.

With all your made up myths, how do you know YOU are not the one refusing to believe God's Word as written? Jason, your limited understanding of this subject in scripture cannot make you an authority, but more of a false teacher, following other false teachers where some of these myths started, though you've added your own with no repentance. I grew up just like you, so I know your struggle. But for some reason, the Spirit knew my heart and opened my eyes. But, still, I was almost 30 years old.

If you are really cautious with your soul, believe God's whole New Covenant and stop limiting God with this cessationist madness and heresy that doesn't believe ALL of the covenant is for them, but instills fear for your soul. That fear is from the devil to steal and rob you of an abundant relationship with God. Satan doesn't want you to hear God's voice. And God won't speak to you unless you believe. I hear God's voice clearly, and He tells me what to pray, I repeat His words, and the prayer is answered. That is 100%, not hit and miss. Many times you have started statements of unbelief using "no one does..." But that is because you've imprisoned yourself away from what is really going on in the real Church. You are as clueless as every other cessationist out there, like I was. Stop your rebellion against God and His covenant promises.

Just as the coming of Jesus Christ ended the first covenant, ONLY the second coming of Jesus Christ will end the new covenant, by its Author; and that is all the untwisted words including that we will see Him literally face to face. Just as nothing was removed or ceased during the first covenant, the same is true for this covenant, ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hey... the (while you burn) was OUTSIDE the quotes.

What were you claiming when you wrote this?
"Charismatics also make up 500 million Christians of our day. Did not Jesus say, "narrow is the way"?"
Are you not questioning the salvation of 500 million Charismatic Christians?
(if not outright condemning! - not to mention misusing God's Word!)
And if they aren't saved, what is their eternal destination?

And you still stand behind that? ???

I was not saying that all Charismatics are going to hell. I was referring to the majority and not the minority. I am saying that the majority way of this particular popular religion leads to many errors and problems. I have seen the majority of the Charismatic movement, and I can say that much of it (not all of it) is not of God. I did say before in my other posts that I believe that it was 5% or 10% possible that Continuationism could be true (and that a very small few select group of them unknown to my knowledge could be operating correctly by God's Word). I leave room that I could be wrong because I do not want to talk against God just in case there are a few unknown men or women of God who are acting by God's power correctly like they did in the early church days.

In other words, when I attack Continuationism and the Charismatic movement, I am taking about the majority of it and not the potential small unknown group of them that could be obeying God's Word correctly. So far, I have not run into this group, but that does not mean they may not exist.

Sorry, I did not clarify that in my posts to you before.

May God bless you.


Side Note:

Also, I say to unbelievers "God bless you," too. This does not mean I am being cruel and wishing them well as they go to hell. Nothing is further from the truth. I do not know their fate. They can repent. But my saying kind words of God to them because God cares and loves them is the best thing I know what to do for those who have not accepted the Lord or who strayed away from His path. "God bless you" is a phrase of simply kindness with no malice on my part. Even if I think they are not saved, that does not mean I wishing they burn as I bless them. That is what was wrong with your accusation against me. You are thinking I had ill will intent towards others as I bless them and such is not the case. Like GOD: I desire for all men to be saved and to know His loving and good ways.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With all your made up myths, how do you know YOU are not the one refusing to believe God's Word as written? Jason, your limited understanding of this subject in scripture cannot make you an authority, but more of a false teacher, following other false teachers where some of these myths started, though you've added your own with no repentance. I grew up just like you, so I know your struggle. But for some reason, the Spirit knew my heart and opened my eyes. But, still, I was almost 30 years old.

If you are really cautious with your soul, believe God's whole New Covenant and stop limiting God with this cessationist madness and heresy that doesn't believe ALL of the covenant is for them, but instills fear for your soul. That fear is from the devil to steal and rob you of an abundant relationship with God. Satan doesn't want you to hear God's voice. And God won't speak to you unless you believe. I hear God's voice clearly, and He tells me what to pray, I repeat His words, and the prayer is answered. That is 100%, not hit and miss. Many times you have started statements of unbelief using "no one does..." But that is because you've imprisoned yourself away from what is really going on in the real Church. You are as clueless as every other cessationist out there, like I was. Stop your rebellion against God and His covenant promises.

Just as the coming of Jesus Christ ended the first covenant, ONLY the second coming of Jesus Christ will end the new covenant, by its Author; and that is all the untwisted words including that we will see Him literally face to face. Just as nothing was removed or ceased during the first covenant, the same is true for this covenant, ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ.

I would have to be convinced biblically. The verses I proposed on Cessationism in the OP are really clear to me. Does that mean I could not be wrong? Surely not. I like it when another person challenges what I think on Scripture. It helps me to pray more about it and to dig in God's Word more.

In any event, may the Lord's love shine upon you today (even if we disagree).

 

[NBB]

I was not saying that all Charismatics are going to hell. I was referring to the majority and not the minority. I am saying that the majority way of a particular popular religion sometimes can lead to many errors and problems. I have seen the majority of the Charismatic movement, and I can say that much of it (not all of it) is not of God. I did say before in my other posts that I believe that it was 5% or 10% possible that Continuationism could be true (and that a very small few select group of them unknown to my knowledge that could be operating correctly by God's Word). I leave room that I could be wrong because I do not want to talk against those few unknown men or women of God who are acting by God's power correctly.

In other words, when I attack Continuationism and the Charismatic movement, I am taking about the majority of it and not the potential small unknown group of them that could be obeying God's Word correctly. So far, I have not run into this group, but that does not mean they may not exist.

Sorry, I did not clarify that in my posts to you before.

May God bless you.

Speaking of walking by faith... Is very hard to convince someone on the internet, but sincerely: You should believe more, there is people that tells you they have experienced the gifts either them or by others, and were filled with the Holy spirit, you believe they are all deluded and hallucinating?, this stuff is real, i can't trasnfer my thoughts and experiences to you, but you are holding a position because you think it is that way, i hold my position because i lived it.

If you would understand how the Holy spirit entered my chest area, because i could discern it and i'm certain it was him, you would believe its not something everyone has. With this i am not saying that people filled are superior or something, its just that like in the bible the disciples went trough pentecost also we need our pentecost. Some peolpe receive it when believing but the majority won't.

And this pastor you 'despise': he told me like i said my 2 biggest wishes at the time without knowing anything about me, he did not just told a big list of things and those were included he just told me specifically that, God there was probably doing that to encourage me and grow my faith in what him could do, that is a sign!, a evidence that minister has something, a gift of propehcy maybe? And this wishes were from God he put them in me. Why is so hard to believe others? you think i'm trying to deceive you wasting everyone time?.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Speaking of walking by faith... Is very hard to convince someone on the internet, but sincerely: You should believe more, there is people that tells you they have experienced the gifts either them or by others, and were filled with the Holy spirit, you believe they are all deluded and hallucinating?, this stuff is real, i can't trasnfer my thoughts and experiences to you, but you are holding a position because you think it is that way, i hold my position because i lived it.

If you would understand how the Holy spirit entered my chest area, because i could discern it and i'm certain it was him, you would believe its not something everyone has. With this i am not saying that people filled are superior or something, its just that like in the bible the disciples went trough pentecost also we need our pentecost. Some peolpe receive it when believing but the majority won't.

And this pastor you 'despise': he told me like i said my 2 biggest wishes at the time without knowing anything about me, he did not just told a big list of things and those were included he just told me specifically that, God there was probably doing that to encourage me and grow my faith in what him could do, that is a sign!, a evidence that minister has something, a gift of propehcy maybe? And this wishes were from God he put them in me. Why is so hard to believe others? you think i'm trying to deceive you wasting everyone time?.

I honestly do not know what Pastor you are referring to;
So how could I despise him.

I also believe God has transformed my life and I felt changed spiritually by God. I wanted everyone to have the inner peace, joy, and love that I had when I accepted Christ. I also believe God lives inside me, as well. The Bible tells me this and not an experience. Granted, while I am not saying that what you have experienced is not true, I would need to confirm what you believe.

Do you believe women can speak having authority over men within the church?
Do you believe that there can only be 2-3 tongues speakers (at most) talking in turn to give messages?
Do you believe that there has to be an interpreter present and if not the tongues speakers are to keep silent?
Have you witnessed real languages (unknown tongues) being spoken, and not ecstatic utterances, and the interpreter was able to give the correct interpretation for everyone to understand in your language?

Does your church believe in the Trinity?
Does your church believe in a form of the prosperity gospel or something like: "The word of faith movement"?

Do you believe in holy laughter?
Do you believe that it is normal for a person to scream on the ground while the Pastor chants certain words?
Do you believe it is normal when a person shakes their heads uncontrollably fast?
Do you think it is normal when a Pastor makes a crowd of people to fall down by the wave of their hand?

Have you seen any miraculous healings like in the early church within your church?
If not, then why has this ceased within your church?
It that not a form of Cessationism?

 

[NBB]

I honestly do not know what Pastor you are referring to.
So how could I despise him.
I also believe God has transformed my life and I felt changed spiritually by God. I wanted everyone to have the inner peace, joy, and love that I had when I accepted Christ. I also believe God lives inside me, as well. The Bible tells me this and not an experience. Granted, while I am not saying that what you have not experienced is not true, I would need to confirm what you believe.

Do you believe women can speak having authority over men within the church?
Do you believe that there can only be 2-3 tongues speakers (at most) talking in turn to give messages?
Do you believe that there has to be an interpreter present and if not the tongues speakers are to keep silent?
Have you witnessed real languages (unknown tongues) being spoken, and not ecstatic utterances, and the interpreter was able to give the correct interpretation?

Does your church believe in the Trinity?

Do you believe in holy laughter?
Do you believe that it is normal for a person to scream on the ground while the Pastor chants certain words?
Do you believe it is normal when a person shakes their heads uncontrollably fast?
Do you think it is normal when a Pastor makes a crowd of people to fall down by the wave of their hand?

Have you seen any miraculous healings like in the early church within your church?
If not, then why has this ceased within your church?
It that not a form of Cessationism?

We talked about that pastor in another thread. You probably forgot.

That i didn't see enough miracles is not proof they ceased, just that i did not see them, but i saw this that i talked to you. Not enough miracles? at least it is something. I am not saying i saw NT level stuff, but that doesn't mean cessationism is true.

Except in prophecy, i told you about that pastor, and the filling too, and i'm just a believer not a minister, i say they saw and lived a lot more than me.

At least things are happening from the Holy spirit!, the closer we are to God the better, even if the church is not perfect at all.

And they are not cutting off a blessing like being filled with the Holy spirit teaching that every believer has it and not believing in it. That is worse that letting women speak and etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We talked about that pastor in another thread. You probably forgot.

Pretty busy and it is hard to keep track sometimes. What was his name?

That i didn't see enough miracles is not proof they ceased, just that i did not see them, but i saw this that i talked to you. Not enough miracles? at least it is something. I am not saying i saw NT level stuff, but that doesn't mean cessationism is true.

Perhaps. But if you are arguing that the gift of miracles have not ceased, then somebody out there would have done something like heal another on the same level consistently like the early apostles did.

Except in prophecy, i told you about that pastor, and the filling too, and i'm just a believer not a minister, i say they saw and lived a lot more than me.

Well, I am not saying that this working was not of God (because I do not know your church, Pastor, beliefs, etc), but you should double and triple confirm the truth of God's Word in prayer because even psychics have the ability to know things about a person that seems impossible for them to know.

At least things are happening from the Holy spirit!, the closer we are to God the better, even if the church is not perfect at all.

What do you mean by not perfect?

And they are not cutting off a blessing like being filled with the Holy spirit teaching that every believer has it and not believing in it. That is worse that letting women speak and etc.

Not sure what you are talking about. But you did not answer my questions. By not answering all of my questions clearly it does not make me trust that Continuationism is the more truthful position to hold to.

 

[NBB]

Pretty busy and it is hard to keep track sometimes. What was his name?



Perhaps. But if you are arguing that the gift of miracles have not ceased, then somebody out there would have done something like heal another on the same level consistently like the early apostles did.



Well, I am not saying that this working was not of God (because I do not know your church, Pastor, beliefs, etc), but you should double and triple confirm the truth of God's Word in prayer because even psychics have the ability to know things about a person that seems impossible for them to know.



What do you mean by not perfect?



Not sure what you are talking about. But you did not answer my questions. By not answering all of my questions clearly it does not make me trust that Continuationism is the more truthful position to hold to.

You discarded him because he met with Benny Hinn, Claudio Freidzon, but to say he does things by devil or is a physic is taking it too far and not reasonable at all, a 'kingdom divided in itself cannot last' he also expulsed an evil spirit from me that i had from when i was young. Sometimes our bad suspicion goes too far.

To answer your question: i don't know if this is helpful at all.
Yes the church believes in the trinity
Yes they allow to women to speak but they are not supposed to have authority over her husband. They just can speak.
I never saw an interpretation of tongues
No they don't do prosperity gospel or word of faith.
I never witness a foreign tongue spoken language.
I don't care if holy laugther is true or not, i think it may be.
People revolting on the floor gives me a bad feel, and i never witnessed that in our church.
I don't like that shakes in the head no, probably something 'weird' going on, i never witnessed that either.

About healings
The pastor wife was declared 'done' by the doctors years ago because of cancer of uterus she was healed, i don't say someone Peter style done it but, i don't hear of much healings, somtimes there is testimonies that God healed someone, i actually don't think God has healed me of anything i know in any evident miracoulous way.

I don't speak in tongues.

There is no perfect church anywhere, especially the people in them all have some defects.

But if you critizice a church that claims gifts because there is not enough miracles and in your church you don't even believe in the filling of the Holy spirit, is like the dead complaining about the beheaded.

 

[JAL]

Perhaps. But if you are arguing that the gift of miracles have not ceased, then somebody out there would have done something like heal another on the same level consistently like the early apostles did.

(Sigh) That doesn't follow. Not every Christian has made the sacrifices that it takes to be an Elijah or Moses. There are multiple factors determining the magnitude and variety of God's graces. Such as:
(1) Spiritual maturity.
(2) Prayer. Paul asked the churches to PRAY for him to be effective.
(3) Revival. A revival can be a season of God's mercy such that even immature believers are quickly elevated to maturity. Pentecost was probably the greatest revival in history. You can't just assume that every generation would automatically have the same number of miracles.

You strike me as a bit of a fake. You make a pretense of an objective 'investigation' of Scripture, but mostly you just compose strawman arguments in your determination to discredit charismatic theology. You do a great job fooling yourself, but I've got to wonder (aloud) whether you're really fooling anyone else.

For example you insist that everyone should address YOUR objections head-on, meanwhile ignoring many of ours.