Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

[Seville90210]

My view is that Israel is at peace right now, mom's and kids going shopping, basketball games, political wrangling, tourist throughout the land, praying at the west wall, farming...etc.

Douggg, if by chance you live in Israel, just go outside and pick up the morning newspaper. I'm sure you'll find many articles about wars and rumors of war involving Israel.

Now if you don't live in Israel, here are some of the news surrounding Israel in these links.

Birth pangs

Earth calamities and Rumors of war

I am also thinking if Trump's plan is accepted, then it will amplify the current peace Israel is experiencing; in a pre-Gog-Magog situation.

I am not saying that Trump's plan or any sort of "peace plan" is the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for 7 years.

Douggg, if you think Israel is already at peace, why is Trump working on a peace plan involving Israel?

 

[Seville90210]

Armageddon feast Ezekiel 39:17-20 = Revelation 19:17-18 feast

Douggg, if you think the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 and Revelation 19:17 are one in the same, that would put Ezekiel 38-39 in the 7 year tribulation and not before.

You just inadvertently admitted your OP is wrong.

Also this. Have you read what I wrote in post #153? The 7 years of burning weapons in Ezekiel 39:9-10 cannot be the same 7 year tribulation.

The Jews won't be staying in Israel the entire 7 years during the tribulation as they will flee at the mid point during the AoD and be scattered everywhere except in Israel. That means the longest they can burn weapons while in Israel would be 3 1/2 years only during the first half. Has this crossed your mind?

 

[Seville90210]

It could also be meaning during the time of God's wrath instead, where I place that time after the trib but before the 2nd coming. IOW Matthew 24:29, which then leads to the last 7 vials of wrath. It is after the trib when the beast and fp are dealt with. And if the Gog battle and defeat happens at the end of this age, how can it possibly not also involve the beast and fp in some manner?

I'm not sure if I fully understood you here David. To me, the tribulation is the final 7 years aka Daniel's 70th week, and Armageddon is near the end of that 7 years when Christ defeats the a/c and fp. Are we on the same page here or are you talking about something else?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Revelation 20:8 = during the unspecified "little time" after the Millennium, Between the Millennium and Final Judgment at the arrival of the Great White Throne.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, if you think Israel is already at peace, why is Trump working on a peace plan involving Israel?

That's a really good question. I would have to say in comparison of what they came out of during WWII motivated by the holocaust, in comparison they are in peace.

But for sure it is a tentative peace, having gone through wars with the Arabs since coming back into the land.

Let's see how the Trump deals goes.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not sure if I fully understood you here David. To me, the tribulation is the final 7 years aka Daniel's 70th week, and Armageddon is near the end of that 7 years when Christ defeats the a/c and fp. Are we on the same page here or are you talking about something else?

We're pretty much on the same page here, though not entirely, yet close anyway. If I feel up to the task, maybe later on I will try and further expand on what I was getting at. ATM not quite focused for that task. Still somewhat early here.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 20:8 = during the unspecified "little time" after the Millennium, Between the Millennium and Final Judgment at the arrival of the Great White Throne.

I think pretty much everyone are likely in agreement with this. What is debatable though, when does the millennium take place? Before Christ returns or after Christ returns? If any of the events in Ezekiel 38 are referring to these same events recorded in Revelation 20:7-10, that would obviously indicate the millennium has to precede Christ's 2nd coming then. No way can anything recorded in Ezekiel 38 be meaning after the 2nd coming. After all, Ezekiel 38 and 39 are speaking of the same events. IOW, the Gog and his multitude in Ezekiel 38 are the same Gog and his multitude that are defeated in Ezekiel 39, thus end up dead and buried. And if the events recorded in Ezekiel 39 take place in this present age, then so must the events recorded in Ezekiel 38 take place in this present age.

 

[Douggg]

The Jews won't be staying in Israel the entire 7 years during the tribulation as they will flee at the mid point during the AoD and be scattered everywhere except in Israel. That means the longest they can burn weapons while in Israel would be 3 1/2 years only during the first half. Has this crossed your mind?

Well part of them will flee in time. But some of them won't, and the remainers are in Revelation 12:17. And there have to be Jews in Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14, when Jesus returns.

The issue becomes why doesn't Satan just have the beast wipe them all out who he has access to? imo, it is because Satan uses them as hostages.

When Satan and his angels get cast down in the middle of the 7 years in Revelation 12:7-9, he knows that he has but a short time left in Revelation 12:12, as God begins dismantling his kingdom, Babylon the Great.

So Satan is going to take steps in an attempt to keep from being destroyed.
__________________________________________
Speaking about Satan in these verses...

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
______________________________________________________
Well, how's all that going to happen?

Here's my view.

As God begins dismantling Satan kingdom, Satan gets cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9.

Satan, immediately, incarnates the image of the beast, making it appear to come to life, a lying wonder, so everyone worships him or else.

When Jesus returns, and stands on the mount of olives directly across the Kidron valley - the beast, the false prophet, and the statue image of the beast are on the temple mount, surrounded by the armies of the world and their leaders.

The beast and false prophet are first to be dwelt with and will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Then the outer facade of the statue will be melted away in flames - there will be Satan for all to see. Them there to see it, the armies and their leaders, will be astonished.

Then Jesus speaks judgment on them gathered to make war on him, and they die.

Then a lone angel descends binds Satan in chains and he is taken to the bottomless pit for the thousand years.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I think pretty much everyone are likely in agreement with this. What is debatable though, when does the millennium take place? Before Christ returns or after Christ returns? If any of the events in Ezekiek 38 are referring to these same events recorded in Revelation 20:7-10, that would obviously indicate the millennium has to precede Christ's 2nd coming then. No way can anything recorded in Ezekiel 38 be meaning after the 2nd coming. After all, Ezekiel 38 and 39 are speaking of the same events. IOW, the Gog and his multitude in Ezekiel 38 are the same Gog and his multitude that are defeated in Ezekiel 39, thus end up dead and buried. And if the events recorded in Ezekiel 39 take place in this present age, then so must the events recorded in Ezekiel 38 take place in this present age.

yes

2nd C = GWTJ = revelation 20:9+

 

[DavidPT]

yes

2nd C = GWTJ = revelation 20:9+

It all depends on whether the Gog and his multitude of Ezekiel 38 and 39 are the same Gog and his multitude of Revelation 20.

 

[Erik Nelson]

It all depends on whether the Gog and his multitude of Ezekiel 38 and 39 are the same Gog and his multitude of Revelation 20.

On what grounds would anyone conclude otherwise?

 

[DavidPT]

Speaking about Satan in these verses...

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Does this mean you take this to be meaning at the end of satan's little season after the thousand years, post the 2nd coming?

Then a lone angel descends binds Satan in chains and he is taken to the bottomless pit for the thousand years.

Even though I too am Premil, this has always struck me as odd if this takes place at the 2nd coming. When the 2nd coming takes place, it won't just involve a lone angel though, it will involve countless angels. Makes one wonder then, why John would notice this lone angel in particular when there would likely be millions of angels all over the place at the time?

 

[DavidPT]

On what grounds would anyone conclude otherwise?

If the Gog and his multitude in Revelation 20 are not literally the same Gog and his multitude in Ezekiel 38-39 who literally end up dead and buried, but that the former is being used symbolically, this would indicate that the thousand years don't have to precede the 2nd coming, but that they could follow the 2nd coming instead.

 

[Douggg]

Even though I too am Premil, this has always struck me as odd if this takes place at the 2nd coming. When the 2nd coming takes place, it won't just involve a lone angel though, it will involve countless angels. Makes one wonder then, why John would notice this lone angel in particular when there would likely be millions of angels all over the place at the time?

Well, it will be the heavenly host of angels present, I agree. It doesn't say who the angel is, but it could be Michael, who (along with his angels) had warred with Satan (and his angels) earlier.

 

[claninja]

No, I am not saying dual fulfillment, I am saying they used what they knew of the psalms and applied it to religious leaders at that time.

Good we agree it is not dual fulfillment.

I still completely disagree with your interpretation method. The believers quote psalm 2:1-2 and state FOR IN TRUTH, and then interpret it as fulfilled with the crucifixion of Christ.

Acts 4:25-27 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,d said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Anointed’e— FOR IN TRUTH in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel.

You clearly have to create a new interpretation method to make your argument work.

John in 1John2:18, applied what he knew about the coming antichrist person and applied it to them in his day who were acting in the same spirit, by calling the antichrists.

I completely disagree with your reasoning.

"You have heard" is a past tense verb. In the past they heard that antichrist is coming. NOW many antichrists have come.

He is telling them in the past they heard that antichrist is coming, and NOW many antichrists have come, that is how they know the it is the last hour.

1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so NOW many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

It's just like saying: 5 years ago you heard (past tense) coca cola orange vanilla is coming, and NOW coca cola orange vanilla has come and it's in a lot of stores.

 

[Douggg]

Does this mean you take this to be meaning at the end of satan's little season after the thousand years, post the 2nd coming?

No, I am taking it to be the day Jesus returns in Revelation 19. The reason being is that there is nothing that actually states what happens to image of the beast that comes alive and everyone is forced to worship.

And somehow we have to apply this verse to an actual event...

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Of course at the end of the thousand years, Satan is cast into the lake of fire, so he is not going to be brought to ashes upon the earth in that particular event.

So I think Ezekiel 28:18 is talking about the statue image of the beast, that he will be incarnating (imo). And subsequently, Satan exposed when the outer facade goes up in flames.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi David, Jesus Himself is speaking Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned this earth. It can't be anyone else but Jesus speaking in those verses.

I don't have a dispute with this I don't think. Jesus is God, right?

Prior to his returning are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, and the 7 years (and half's of the 7 years) are through out the Revelation chapters.

So where are you going to put those 7 years in Ezekiel 38-39 ?

Can't be before Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38, because Israel is living in safety and peace right before Gog/Magog. And we know from Revelation, the 42 months before Jesus returns there is persecution of Israel.

The only place that those 7 years can fit is the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

They can fit after the 2nd coming though. That seems to be the only logical place they can fit. My view is that there is going to be a lot of cleanup needed to the planet once Jesus has returned. I don't feel God will just snap His fingers and everything will be restored to pristine condition just like that. Not that He couldn't though. Take the 6 days of creation, for example. What God did in 6 days He could have done with the snap of His fingers in a split second of time, yet He didn't. He decided to make a process out of it instead.

On the burning of weapons issue. The burning of those weapons makes it possible not to have to cut down trees or take wood out of the field - it indicates in Ezekiel 39:9-10.

A couple of points. One the weapons, the tanks, the armored personnel carriers, the vehicles will all be metal. What does one do with metal? They recycle it, melting it in furnaces.

But before they put the vehicles etc into the furnaces - they must empty the fuel. What is wood used for in this particular application? It is burnt for cooking and heat.

So, after Gog/Magog, Israel will think it is entering the messianic age, melting the swords into plows.

And the fuel will be used by the residents in the outlying areas where the destruction takes place, in both the valleys and mountains, for cooking and heat.

Yes, seven years is a long time, but recycling that amount of metal will take a long time because there also have to be facilities with the capacity to do it. And when it gets into the great tribulation, and the Jews fleeing into the wilderness, the fuel left in those vehicles in the most mountainous and wilderness area will come in handy for the Jews avoiding persecution of the beast, to use for cooking and heat.

While this does sound somewhat logical, all of the passages I have looked at having to do with the 70th week, I don't get the impression in any of them that these things would be taking place at the time. The 2nd half of Daniel 9 70th week involves severe persecution by the beast, where many are killed by the beast. Just can't see burning weapons 7 years fitting in with that scenario. Even if you correct, I just don't see it. Sorry.

 

[Douggg]

You clearly have to create a new interpretation method to make your argument work.

This is my thinking regarding Psalms 2.

Psalms 110 + Psalms 2 + Ezekiel 39:17-29 = Jesus's Return.

 

[Douggg]

I don't have a dispute with this I don't think. Jesus is God, right?

Exactly, and that's the whole point. The Jews, the house of Israel, at present don't think so.

 

[Douggg]

They can fit after the 2nd coming though. That seems to be the only logical place they can fit

How can the 7 years confirming of the covenant be after Jesus returns?

And all of the events in Revelation 6-19, take place before Jesus returns. The 7 years are in Revelation 12 (the 1260 days + the time, times, half times). The halves are in Revelation 11:2, 11:3, Revelation 13:5. All of which are before Jesus Returns.

So, since it is Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, the 7 years have to be before then. But after Gog/Magog, which Israel is in peace just before.


Israel living in peace and safety
Then Gog/Magog

(the 7 years have to be in this zone)

Then Jesus having returned, Ezekiel 39:21-29.