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NBB

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I agree. An experience with God makes all the difference. What is your experience?

What you wrote reminded me of this.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

This is not like 'my experience' but what i experienced from God, some of those experiences some people despise but i find they are amazing that God does this things even today:

I wrote a bit how i met God, that i believed in him but he was distant and i was not converted, and then one day that i came to church (a pentecostal one) to give 'thanks to God' because something that happened to me, the Holy spirit started filling me, i could feel him entering my chest, the next reunion, he filled me again until i was full, i was amazed that such things existed, after that i had several experiences as the days passed, i don't know if telling them but i will tell one in particular, i was in my bed at night and i started feeling the love of God in my entire body and soul, and i felt that Jesus was close to me, this love was very strong and undeniable something as real as someone talking to you or touching you, this that God experiences are 'feelings' etc make no sense in this, experiences with God are specific and very real.

This only helped me to draw my attention to God, believe more in him, i just can't doubt God is there, made me have more desire to please him, my interest in God only have gone up, and i can't wait to see what else he has for me in this life.

I sometimes think of people that deny God so much and they just don't know about him, what a constrast when in my life i'm 100% certain he is up there and a reality i can't deny. But convincing someone that God can be close and exists seems so hard sometimes.
 
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That's NOT what that means. !!!!!
Besides, the canon is a collection of books, not a finished work.

How many scrolls make up the Bible? At least 66, right?
Four times John says: "this scroll".

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

So you have have a collection of scrolls instead of a Bible?
The point here is that the word "book" appears in our translations today.
So while it meant scroll or writing back then, the Bible is technically one large scroll (when you look at it how exists today). The Bible was never meant to be a fragmented communication system. All 66 books were all meant to breath as a whole or as one scroll, or one writing, or one book. The Holy Bible.

God knows the future, and He knew that there would be His book known as the Bible today.
So the word "book" in our Bible and not scroll is fitting.
As I said before, men have lost their voice for adding to God's Word (Which is a plague not mentioned in Revelation).

Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
Bible Correctors lose Voice
 
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I agree. An experience with God makes all the difference. What is your experience?

What you wrote reminded me of this.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Nobody is suggesting that we are not changed spiritually by GOD after we accept Him as our Savior. There is clearly a love, joy, and peace that is given to new believers that genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior. But that is by far a huge difference compared to the things shown in Charismatic churches that I have seen. Maybe yours is different. But the stuff I have seen is clearly not of GOD.
Even the stuff I hear about is not biblical or mentioned in the Bible. The Bible has to be the foundation of our faith. For there are those who follow another Jesus, and another gospel. How do we know this? By some random vision or prophecy? No. By the Word of God that has prove itself to be divine ten times over.
 
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Yes. That was the writers intent. From which you deviate.

So... you don't believe God can speak double meanings with Scripture? God did not prophetically speak Revelation 22:18 as having a double meaning as in reference to our Bible today? It sure seems to fit. Especially when men have lost their voice for adding to God's Word. Do you see that as the deception and your church's prophecies, dreams, tongues, or visions are more meaningful to you? I will trust my Bible over any man's visions, dreams, and prophecies, and tongue speakings today. God's Word is enough.
 
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Saint Steven

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Nobody is suggesting that we are not changed spiritually by GOD after we accept Him as our Savior. There is clearly a love, joy, and peace that is given to new believers that genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior. But that is by far a huge difference compared to the things shown in Charismatic churches that I have seen. Maybe yours is different. But the stuff I have seen is clearly not of GOD.
Even the stuff I hear about is not biblical or mentioned in the Bible. The Bible has to be the foundation of our faith. For there are those who follow another Jesus, and another gospel. How do we know this? By some random vision or prophecy? No. By the Word of God that has prove itself to be divine ten times over.
On what basis do you judge what manifestations are of the Holy Spirit and what you claim are not? Just because you have never done it before? I think you mistake culture shock for false doctrine.
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you see that as the deception and your church's prophecies, dreams, tongues, or visions are more meaningful to you? I will trust my Bible over any man's visions, dreams, and prophecies, and tongue speakings today.
No. We are to weigh what is said. Eat the meat and spit out the bones.
What you said was false according to the Bible. Therefore I rejected it.

1 Corinthians 14:29
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
 
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Lost4words

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The devil is a great deceiver.

The Bible is like a big book of riddles and parables etc. Not easily understood. Massively misinterpreted.

Even St Peter said that Pauls writings were not very easily understood!

2 Peter 3:16
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
 
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Saint Steven

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The devil is a great deceiver.

The Bible is like a big book of riddles and parables etc. Not easily understood. Massively misinterpreted.

Even St Peter said that Pauls writings were not very easily understood!

2 Peter 3:16
16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
What ever will we do?
 
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NBB

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Nobody is suggesting that we are not changed spiritually by GOD after we accept Him as our Savior. There is clearly a love, joy, and peace that is given to new believers that genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior. But that is by far a huge difference compared to the things shown in Charismatic churches that I have seen. Maybe yours is different. But the stuff I have seen is clearly not of GOD.
Even the stuff I hear about is not biblical or mentioned in the Bible. The Bible has to be the foundation of our faith. For there are those who follow another Jesus, and another gospel. How do we know this? By some random vision or prophecy? No. By the Word of God that has prove itself to be divine ten times over.

Nobody is denying there is 'weird stuff' in so called 'pentecostal/charismatic' churches but don't put them all in one bag with the good ones, as i see you are not doing because you said you don't deny some things in pentecostal churches could be ok, but at the same time, you ever got ministered by some that believe in gifts? some of them which i showed you one and you said he was probably a bad minister in other thread, have some 'insane' spiritual discernment capable of telling you things they do not know for sure, for example this minister told me i was desiring a new better house and a wife, and yes at the moment those were my 2 biggest wishes, how he knew? there is a lot that could of go wrong if he was just inventing things, but yes those were my 2 biggest wishes, and he knew zero about me, and i never told anyone about those two desires, very specific isn't??. Believe a bit more in at least the gift of prophecy because some people are experiencing those things.
 
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NBB

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Pentacostal / Charismatic is modern though? All started in the 20th century!

It has no real history has it?

Basically a pentecostal, i mean i could be a bit wrong but, is someone like a baptist etc but that seeks more of the Holy spirit and the power of God, like the filling of the Holy spirit, and believes and seek the gifts etc. They are also more active in fighting the devil in peoples lives.
 
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Nobody is denying there is 'weird stuff' in so called 'pentecostal/charismatic' churches but don't put them all in one bag with the good ones, as i see you are not doing because you said you don't deny some things in pentecostal churches could be ok, but at the same time, you ever got ministered by some that believe in gifts? some of them which i showed you one and you said he was probably a bad minister in other thread, have some 'insane' spiritual discernment capable of telling you things they do not know for sure, for example this minister told me i was desiring a new better house and a wife, and yes at the moment those were my 2 biggest wishes, how he knew? there is a lot that could of go wrong if he was just inventing things, but yes those were my 2 biggest wishes, and he knew zero about me, and i never told anyone about those two desires, very specific isn't??. Believe a bit more in at least the gift of prophecy because some people are experiencing those things.

While I always leave room for if I am wrong on this topic (So as not to speak against those who may be operating genuinely by God's power), what I have seen, heard, and read so far is not what is written in Scripture. This is not to say that your experience was not genuine. It may be. I would have to ask you questions to see what you believe. If that did not bear fruit, I would have to witness what you did. Pray about it, and search the Scriptures again. But I already lean towards Cessationism because there are a ton of verses that supports that conclusion.

However, there is an easier way. There is an author who makes some really great points in an article on the Charismatic movement.

While I disagree with their interpretation that 1 Corinthians 3:16 is referring to the carnal Christian with their point #1 (because Christians cannot be carnal and saved), I do agree for the most part with the majority of the points they made.

http://jbeard.users.rapidnet.com/bdm/Psychology/char/35.htm

This article will help you to see the objections I have with the Charismatic movement.
Maybe your church is different and is in the minority.
I don't know.
Please read the article and see if you agree or disagree.
This will help you to see where I am coming from.
 
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No. We are to weigh what is said. Eat the meat and spit out the bones.
What you said was false according to the Bible. Therefore I rejected it.

1 Corinthians 14:29
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

So your church does not allow for women to speak in authority over men?
Your church speaks in tongues only at 2-3 at most and they do so in order (i.e. one at a time)?
Your church always has an interpreter present when a person speaks in tongues?

Tongues are for unbelievers.
Have any unbelievers come to the faith as a result of the tongues being miraculous working of a foreign language?

When you say that you eat the meat and spit out the bones, are you saying that the message sometimes has a non useful aspect to it?
 
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On what basis do you judge what manifestations are of the Holy Spirit and what you claim are not? Just because you have never done it before? I think you mistake culture shock for false doctrine.

Do you believe in holy laughter?
Do you believe that a person can be shaking on the ground and scream while the Christian teacher chants words like in the occult?
Do you believe a person can shake their head uncontrollably fast (and their head appears like a blur)?
Do you a person can thrown back or moved about as if they are having convulsions?
 
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Yes. That was the writers intent. From which you deviate.

The writer was God unless you think John gave himself his own vision.
John was merely the vessel.
God is the author.
God knows the future, and so the Bible we have today is fitting that it says "book" and not scroll in Revelation 22:18 because God knew that the scrolls would end up in a one book format for our day (called the "Holy Bible"). God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Meaning, God speaks to us today through His Word (for our time).

In other words, the Bible exists today and not a bunch of scrolls. We are not living in the past, and neither is GOD.
 
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Der Alte

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<J0>The writer was God unless you think John gave himself his own vision.
John was merely the vessel.
God is the author.
God knows the future, and so the Bible we have today is fitting that it says "book" and not scroll in Revelation 22:18 because God knew that the scrolls would end up in a one book format for our day (called the "Holy Bible"). God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Meaning, God speaks to us today through His Word (for our time).
In other words, the Bible exists today and not a bunch of scrolls. We are not living in the past, and neither is GOD.<J0>
The Greek word "biblyon" translated "book" in Revelation 22:18 does not necessarily mean book. The first book as we know books did not exist until 800. So if it the word meant book nobody would have understood what John was saying for more than 800 years.

G975 βιβλίον/biblion
Thayer Definition:
1) a small book, a scroll, a written document
2) a sheet on which something has been written
2a) a bill of divorcement
 
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JAL

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Robert Baxter, mentioned above, said he spoke under a painful restraint, but later accused himself of being a false prophet, so that shows what concsience does. not work. Concience can be corrupted. I find it somewhat heretical that you put concience above scripture.
Understandably, authoritative conscience is a frightening theory to evangelicals imbibed with Sola Scriptura for the last 500 years. Hopefully this post will help to alleviate your concerns.
(1) You're already practicing authoritative conscience (feelings of certainty). There's no escaping it. Every fork in the road confronts you with choices. You will, as a Christian, consistently choose the option that you feel most certain about. How did you come to that certainty? That too involved forks in the road and, there too, you went with the options that you felt most certain about (such as exegesis).

(2) If you deny authoritative conscience, you tie God's hands from running His church. Suppose He wants you to do something specific right now. Must He wait until you HAPPEN to reach that same conclusion exegetically, perhaps after seminary? And what are the odds of THAT happening? A God-given feeling of certainty is the only viable theory as to how the Spirit can lead us spontaneously.

(3) Conscience is beneficial. If everyone did the opposite of what their conscience told them to do, this world would likely self-destruct in about one hour.

(4) Authoritative conscience is really a tautology, it is claiming, "At any given momement I do in fact believe what I feel most certain about."

With that background, let me try to alleviate your concerns. Ultimately, the following three activities will have the same result:
(1) Praying for feelings of certainty
(2) Praying for direct revelation
(3) Praying for outpourings of the Holy Spirit.

Are you afraid to do this? Are you afraid that the devil will deceive you? Listen to what Jesus said:

11“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:11-13).

WHY would God send you the devil in response to a cry for help? Do you honestly think He wants to emotionally scar you with a horrible deception such that you fall off a cliff and never pray to Him again?

You might feel, "I just don't believe it. I don't believe that, via prayer, I could EVER get enough certainty to be convinced it was God responding to me."

That's how I felt, especially before I got saved. A guy used to tell me, "Pray for God to reveal himself to you. That's His job." And, as an atheist, I couldn't fathom ANY MEANS for Him to convince me of His Presence. Until it happened.

And, so what? So what if your prayers never obtain enough certainty to fully convince you? What's the downside of all this? That you spent too much time in prayer? Is that really such a bad thing?

Later I plan to discuss Abraham as an example of a man who experienced 100% certainty.
 
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1stcenturylady

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In fact, again, tongues were only the speaking of a real foreign language only. God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33). It is strange that most tongues speaking we see today is not the biblical version, and there are no other miracles being done on the level that we see in the early new church by any kind of public awareness. To our knowledge: Nobody's shadow is healing anybody. Nobody's clothes are being sent out to heal others. Nobody is able to speak so as to heal another of physical born deformities. Nobody today is raising the dead. Nobody on an entire island were healed of a sickness. Again, even Paul had shown towards the end of his life that he could no longer heal. Paul did not send a cloth of healing to Timothy along with his letter to him in regards to healing him of the infirmities of his stomach. Neither did Paul tell Timothy to visit a believer who was a gifted healer, (or that he was sending one to him), either. Paul instead told Timothy to drink a little wine with his water for the infirmities of his stomach instead.

Question: When you say tongues are foreign languages, who is saying anything different? Are you saying that they are meant to be understood naturally by someone there of that language? Do you believe they were for the purpose of preaching to foreigners? Tell me what you believe is meant by "tongues is a sign to the unbeliever"?

Jason, you are making some bold statements such as "nobody is ..." How wrong you are. You just don't mix with people where these things are common place. I'm sorry you do not allow yourself to believe, but nothing you say can make me an unbeliever, nor make portions of the Word of God of non effect. That is NOT evidence of Sola Scriptura when you don't believe all of it.
 
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1stcenturylady

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As for Pentecost: They spoke foreign tongues according to Acts of the Apostles 2:4. So when they spoke to another, they spoke to that person in that person's language. If that person spoke back, they would speak back in the listener's language (i.e. they would also be speaking in a foreign tongue). They were able to understand each other (Which was a temporary reversal of the curse at Babylon). This was important because I believe that the early apostles were able to sometimes spread the gospel in other foreign languages by the power or gifting of the Holy Spirit to other nations. The foreign tongues also served as a sign of "judgment" to the Jew. For when the Jew went into the Babylonian Exile, they heard foreign tongues as a part of their judgment from God.

Well, I ran across this posting and I see you answered a couple of my questions. All I can say is, oh my! Why would Paul tell the Greeks from Corinth that tongues was still a sign of judgment to the Jews, so don't all speak in tongues at the same time? Why would you come up with human reasoning like "tongues was a temporary reversal of the curse at Babylon" that is no where to be found in scripture? You preach sola scriptura, but don't want to believe what it says! In fact, scripture contradicts your reasoning. Tongues is NOT to be understood by man; it is only to be understood by God. Acts 2 did NOT show that the tongues were understood naturally by those devout Jews. You read it wrong. Each Jew HEARD all of them speaking in their own different language. IOW supernaturally, not naturally. Oh my, Jason, you have a lot to learn, but from the tone of your posts and your interjections of unscriptural human reasoning, I don't think you really want to. That makes me sad.
 
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