Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

[Bible Highlighter]

So if somebody has something on equal authority as the Bible, then prove that right here and right now.

While I do not want to paint a broad brush stroke against all who claim to be operating by God's power today, I do want to say that the Charismatic churches I have learned about act in an unbiblical way. They speak ecstatic utterances.

I have not heard of any Charismatic churches yet who speak in foreign tongues alone. Those who claim to speak in tongues do not even follow the instructions of how to speak in tongues according to 1 Corinthians 14. This means that these churches that are not following 1 Corinthians 14 are not speaking for God if they are not following the right prescribed method or way according to His Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe godliness or holy living plays a part in our salvation after we are saved by God's grace. But the problem I see in Charismatic churches it that it emphasizes a spiritual manifestation rather than focusing more on trying to live holy after being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is all about the experience and in feeling good, and it is not about loving others and being concerned with the lost and seeking to save and help the poor. It is more about the experience. But our faith sometimes takes us into challenging situations. Our faith in His Word and not an experience alone. Yes, we walk with GOD and we know we are the children of God by the fruit in our lives. But it is not in the experience of speaking in ecstatic utterances or in being moved by an emotional experience. This is not that we cannot know the Lord's heart; But we should not be swayed or controlled by an experience. We should be sober and vigilant. God is not the author of confusion. We should seek to follow Jesus and His Word. Everything else will fade away. For God's Word will last forever.

For love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (See 1 Corinthians 13:8).

 

[Lost4words]

Jason, i may disagree with you on some things but not what you say about so called tongues. I agree with you 100% my friend

 

[JAL]

I am no Biblical scholar.

Interpretation means interpreting a foreign language into your own tounge.

These days, all i see is masses of people screaming odd sounds, falling over and writhing on the floor!

Ok well if you grew up learning, say, 3 languages, then I suppose you could translate the utterance, if he happened to speak in one of those three languages. But this means you understood the message when you first heard it, whereas Paul said that no one understands it (1Cor 14:2). Also Paul says:

"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret..But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (14:13,28);

If this is a language learned over, say, a period of years, the natural way, why pray for interpretation? Why not just enroll in a language course?

Seems to me Paul's words fit better with the idea of:
(1) An unknown tongue (possibly angelic - see 13:1) is given supernaturally to a believer.
(2) At first, no one understands it (14:2).
(3) Then the Spirit (hopefully) grants someone a one-off gift (the interpretation).
(4) But if not, meanwhile the original speaker is already praying for the one-off gift.
You're welcome to publish a better reading of Paul, if you feel that you have one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem is that most do not speak in any foreign real tongues. Those that do have not been confirmed and they have been proven many times to be fraudulent. Most speak in ecstatic utterances that when analyzed are not really considered to be any real kind of language at all by linguists. God is not the author of confusion. Paul says he would rather speak five words with the understanding than 10,000 words without the understanding. Paul's point was that you were to keep silent if there was no interpreter, and yet that is not what we see commonly in most Charismatic churches.

 

[JAL]

The problem is that most do not speak in any foreign real tongues. Those that do have not been confirmed and they have been proven many times to be fraudulent. Most speak in ecstatic utterances that when analyzed are not really considered to be any real kind of language at all by linguists. God is not the author of confusion. Paul says he would rather speak five words with the understanding than 10,000 words without the understanding. Paul's point was that you were to keep silent if there was no interpreter, and yet that is not what we see commonly in most Charismatic churches.

Again, the existence of a counterfeit doesn't preclude the real thing.
Again, since you boast Sola Scriptura, you should theologize based EXCLUSIVELY on what Paul said, not based on your observations of charismatics. Here too, your Sola Scriptura isn't Sola at all:
(1) You draw conclusions based on observations.
(2) You draw conclusions based on Scripture

 

[NBB]

I believe godliness or holy living plays a part in our salvation after we are saved by God's grace. But the problem I see in Charismatic churches it that it emphasizes a spiritual manifestation rather than focusing more on trying to live holy after being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is all about the experience and in feeling good, and it is not about loving others and being concerned with the lost and seeking to save and help the poor. It is more about the experience. But our faith sometimes takes us into challenging situations. Our faith in His Word and not an experience alone. Yes, we walk with GOD and we know we are the children of God by the fruit in our lives. But it is not in the experience of speaking in ecstatic utterances or in being moved by an emotional experience. This is not that we cannot know the Lord's heart; But we should not be swayed or controlled by an experience. We should be sober and vigilant. God is not the author of confusion. We should seek to follow Jesus and His Word. Everything else will fade away. For God's Word will last forever.

For love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (See 1 Corinthians 13:8).

If you feel something from the Holy spirit, you are going to get 'swayed' a lot, that means God exists and is close to people, and there is no other way of understanding God, than being in touch with God spirit, is not some emotional feel, is actually God manifesting himself to people.

 

[Lost4words]

Thing is, it may not be the Holy Spirit!

 

[Saint Steven]

As for your denial of the Trinity

Whoa, hold the bus. I do NOT deny the Trinity.

As for Pentecost: They spoke foreign tongues according to Acts of the Apostles 2:4. So when they spoke to another, they spoke to that person in that person's language. If that person spoke back, they would speak back in the listener's language (i.e. they would also be speaking in a foreign tongue). They were able to understand each other (Which was a temporary reversal of the curse at Babylon). This was important because I believe that the early apostles were able to sometimes spread the gospel in other foreign languages by the power or gifting of the Holy Spirit to other nations. The foreign tongues also served as a sign of "judgment" to the Jew. For when the Jew went into the Babylonian Exile, they heard foreign tongues as a part of their judgment from God.

Okay that's a good start.
That takes care of #5.
Let's move on to #4 from the list below. Agree or disagree?

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic ministry language - Addressing a message to the whole congregation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

 

[Saint Steven]

I am glad that I am ignorant to things that cannot be verified (Which is unlike the Bible).

So you are claiming that the interpretation of tongues is not biblical?

 

[NBB]

Thing is, it may not be the Holy Spirit!

And if it is? i got to be a christian because the Holy spirit filled me in one reunion in a church, if not i would kept thinking God was a distant thing with a religion for old people.
This totally drew my attention to God, and that what the bible says is true, and that he interacts with people, you can't get that from only reading the bible.

 

[Saint Steven]

The point here is that the author of Hebrews is speaking of these things in the past tense. The author is not saying that these things are still being confirmed presently.

Are you claiming that the author of Hebrews was not alive when he wrote the book?
I can't accept that.

 

[NBB]

So you are claiming that the interpretation of tongues is not biblical?

I wonder, if you have not experienced anything from God spirit, how the bible is verified in someones life? i mean really. Just with history? because the bible itself says so?

 

[Saint Steven]

A believer can be a prophet today or speak prophetically without resorting to foretelling the future. They can expound upon the already existing Scripture that is prophetic in nature. These are not new words, but they are merely a clarification to what the Bible already says (Which many times uses other cross references). A believer can also see the fulfillment of certain events in the real world and say that this is a prophetic fulfillment of Scripture, too. This is not foretelling, but current prophetic telling of things in Scripture.

The test in 1 John 4:3 can apply to humans today. If a person is not confessing Jesus is come in the flesh (like those who deny the deity of Jesus Christ), they are antichrist. For in order for Jesus to come INTO the flesh, He would have to pre-exist as GOD. This makes sense because the Word is God and the Word was made flesh (See John 1:1, and John 1:14).

The Apostle would have a problem with you if he was around today.

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.

 

[Saint Steven]

But the canon is closed (Revelation 22:18).

That's NOT what that means. !!!!!
Besides, the canon is a collection of books, not a finished work.

How many scrolls make up the Bible? At least 66, right?
Four times John says: "this scroll".

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[Saint Steven]

I wonder, if you have not experienced anything from God spirit, how the bible is verified in someones life? i mean really. Just with history? because the bible itself says so?

Perhaps you misunderstood me.
Could you ask the question more clearly? Thanks.

 

[NBB]

Perhaps you misunderstood me.
Could you ask the question more clearly? Thanks.

Not you...
I mean, if someone has not experienced anything from God himself, what makes the bible true for him/her? history? the bible itself? because they have some sort of evidence apart from the bible? life experiences etc.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not you...
I mean, if someone has not experienced anything from God himself, what makes the bible true for him/her? history? the bible itself? because they have some sort of evidence apart from the bible? life experiences etc.

That's an interesting question.
The Bible is a unique book. Almost anyone who reads it gets something out of it.
But it could be only at the level of historic appreciation, I suppose.
I would say that most are curious because they wonder about spiritual things.
What do you think?

 

[NBB]

That's an interesting question.
The Bible is a unique book. Almost anyone who reads it gets something out of it.
But it could be only at the level of historic appreciation, I suppose.
I would say that most are curious because they wonder about spiritual things.
What do you think?

I believed in God since being a kid because i accepted it from my mother, i had read the bible but not thought too much of it, i was not much of a christian i just wanted to live my life, so really i didn't get much of the bible except fear of being condemned, because i sort of believed in what it said, but i was not living as a christian until i met God, then it became alive, but i don't know if you really not had any experience with God how could you be certain that is the truth.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believed in God since being a kid because i accepted it from my mother, i had read the bible but not thought too much of it, i was not much of a christian i just wanted to live my life, so really i didn't get much of the bible except fear of being condemned, because i sort of believed in what it said, but i was not living as a christian until i met God, then it became alive, but i don't know if you really not had any experience with God how could you be certain that is the truth.

I agree. An experience with God makes all the difference. What is your experience?

What you wrote reminded me of this.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.