You've Probably Seen a Fish with Lungs in Person

PsychoSarah

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Polypterus Senegalus, a fish regularly available in pet stores under the name "Dinosaur Bichir".

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How many of you guys have seen this fish, never knowing that instead of a swim bladder that they have lungs?

These fish belong to the only genus of vertebrates that have lungs, but no trachea. I find it fascinating that this heavily implies that the evolution of lungs was initially independent of the evolution of trachea rather than those body parts developing together at the same time.

They regularly breathe air to increase their oxygen supply, regardless of water levels or quality. From what I can find on them, the only thing stopping them from being able to be entirely terrestrial is the fact that they need their bodies to stay moist.

I find it funny that people constantly demand fossil intermediates for various traits when there are living proofs of concept.
 

SeventyOne

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Polypterus Senegalus, a fish regularly available in pet stores under the name "Dinosaur Bichir".

How many of you guys have seen this fish, never knowing that instead of a swim bladder that they have lungs?

These fish belong to the only genus of vertebrates that have lungs, but no trachea. I find it fascinating that this heavily implies that the evolution of lungs was initially independent of the evolution of trachea rather than those body parts developing together at the same time.

They regularly breathe air to increase their oxygen supply, regardless of water levels or quality. From what I can find on them, the only thing stopping them from being able to be entirely terrestrial is the fact that they need their bodies to stay moist.

I find it funny that people constantly demand fossil intermediates for various traits when there are living proofs of concept.

Interesting. So, God created a fish with lungs. Didn't know that.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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More of those transitional species creationists insist don't exist in the fossil record.. except alive. Today. Right in front of their eyes. Mudskippers. "Flying" fish. Legless lizards. They are all over the place.
 
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Kenny'sID

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More of those transitional species creationists insist don't exist in the fossil record.. except alive. Today. Right in front of their eyes. Mudskippers. "Flying" fish. Legless lizards. They are all over the place.

Transitional species? And you know they will finish transforming, how?
 
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d taylor

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More of those transitional species creationists insist don't exist in the fossil record.. except alive. Today. Right in front of their eyes. Mudskippers. "Flying" fish. Legless lizards. They are all over the place.
What was it and what did it become and why is it still here.
 
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Speedwell

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Transitional species? And you know they will finish transforming, how?
They are finished. It was some of their descendants who continued to evolve into other ecological niches. All species are "finished" just as all species are transitional species.
 
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Kenny'sID

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They are finished. It was some of their descendants who continued to evolve into other ecological niches. All species are "finished" just as all species are transitional species.

Was that an answer to the question?
 
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Speedwell

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Was that an answer to the question?
Yes. Succinct and complete.

Here's something to think about: I'm a (retired) machinist. I was well suited to the work and enjoyed it, seeing no reason to change. My son is a mechanical engineer. When he began that career I was still a machinist and continued to work at the trade without seeing any need to change just because my offspring became something different.
 
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Lazarus Short

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More of those transitional species creationists insist don't exist in the fossil record.. except alive. Today. Right in front of their eyes. Mudskippers. "Flying" fish. Legless lizards. They are all over the place.

Saying that does NOT mean that species have transitioned, are transitioning or are going to. Proof would require a time machine to observe offspring, generation after generation. I have said that many time, but it does not seem to sink in. Remember: a hypothesis not proof or natural law.
 
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d taylor

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What is sad in all this. is christians who believe science over the Bible.
The atheist have nowhere to look to for truth and can be expected to put their faith in man/science.
But a christian looking to science to explain God's creation is a curious dilemma to understand.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I see fish with lungs all the time, but your take on things was a better surprise.

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Nerts. If it isn't showing, it's the cover of Neil Shubin's book, Your Inner Fish
 
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Kenny'sID

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Yes. Succinct and complete.

Here's something to think about: I'm a (retired) machinist. I was well suited to the work and enjoyed it, seeing no reason to change. My son is a mechanical engineer. When he began that career I was still a machinist and continued to work at the trade without seeing any need to change just because my offspring became something different.

Not only was it nor a compete answer as to "How", there was nothing there I saw as any answer at all.
 
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Speedwell

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Not only was it nor a compete answer as to "How", there was nothing there I saw as any answer at all.
I thought the question was,
Transitional species? And you know they will finish transforming, how?
My answer was, that they probably are finished. They have evidently found an ecological niche with stable selection criteria and will remain the way they are indefinitely. The fact that somewhere back in the past a branch of that creature's family encountered different selection criteria and evolved into something else doesn't change anything.

Your question is akin to that old creationist riddle, "If we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys?"
 
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Kenny'sID

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My answer was, that they probably are finished.

Exactly..."probably", and your wording means precisely, you don't "know" "how".

Why are we still arguing something so obvious? Best to say you don't know how and move on.
 
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Speedwell

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Exactly..."probably", and your wording means precisely, you don't "know" "how".

Why are we still arguing something so obvious? Best to say you don't know how and move on.
I say "probably" because I don't know the future. I cannot say for certain that the selection criteria which that creature is subjected to will not change, resulting in evolution or extinction. The "how" you are looking for is, I suppose, randomly distributed variation and natural selection.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Saying that does NOT mean that species have transitioned, are transitioning or are going to. Proof would require a time machine to observe offspring, generation after generation. I have said that many time, but it does not seem to sink in. Remember: a hypothesis not proof or natural law.
I called it a "proof of concept". A lot of creationists argue against the existence of transitional species by claiming that certain combinations they view as necessary are physically impossible in a viable animal. This animal is a demonstration that an organism can have adequate lungs and adequate gills at the same time, as well as the capability to effectively move on land despite being an organism that generally stays in the water. That's how it serves as a proof of concept.

There are quite a few animals like this living today, but I found this one to be interesting because I've seen it in pet stores, and never suspected it had lungs.

Also, there's no such thing as literal "proof" in science, that is a thing exclusive to math. However, the evidence to support a scientific conclusion can be so vast and reliable that people treat it as "proof".

Coincidentally, via looking them up more, I found an experiment that pressured them into living a mostly terrestrial life. It's a pretty fascinating experiment as well, because the fish raised that way developed a different body structure than the ones that weren't, and the changes helped them live that way even more. How fish can learn to walk

How lifestyle options impacts evolution is not a topic often covered, so I find it very fascinating. Makes you wonder how much that can apply to humans.
 
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