Witchcraft in the Church

[Tropical Wilds]

Give me a biblical example to prove your case.

...You want me to give you a Biblical example that innate gifts that people have aren’t sinful...? Because God knowing us before we are born and having the birth of his son predicted by astrologers and psychics was, what...?

The fact that you ran such an enterprise (and gave it power) makes you have a blind spot for not seeing that it is a problem.

Since I never claimed there weren’t problems with some beliefs and practices, only that I’m apparently more educated in the community and it’s dynamics than you appear to be.

Also that somebody you said was a witch wasn’t, both because she doesn’t have the ethos and also because she’s fictional.

I am asking you to find biblical support for operating by some kind of supernatural or miraculous power that is not clearly from God as if it being okay with God. By what you said so far, you don't seem to think there is a problem with it.

Yes, I can see where that part where I said there were definite issues, spiritual concerns, practices, and beliefs that were dangerous would directly translate to me saying there’s no problem with it.

For one, you don't see there being any problem with psychics. Yet, is there any biblical support in being a psychic? Or does it seem more like a practice that is similar to those who are in sorcery or witchcraft?

Psychics are different than witches are different than magicians are different than witchcraft. None of these terms are interchangeable.

And if we are talking Miss Cleo psychics, obviously there’s a lot of Biblical support against that kind of lying and theft. If we are talking about psychic psychics, anybody with even a passing understanding of the Bible knows that the word of God comes through spontaneous visions, unknown insights, voices, and other “unexplainable” means.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Zattana casts spells and is said to have magical abilities. In one of the comics it shows that she has a Satanic book. These are direct things clearly shown by DC comics.

DC comics says this about the character, I quote:

"With a name like Zatanna Zatara, becoming a professional stage magician almost seems like an unquestionable career choice. Of course, it doesn’t hurt that the illusions she creates and the spells she weaves to dazzle the audience just so happen to be real."​

They also say,

"However, Zatanna is no stranger to the dangers of magic, having lost her father to the dark arts. Although this left her without a mentor and relatively inexperienced in the world of magic, it only furthered her resolve to stand against anyone seeking to use magic at the cost of others. But if Zatanna hopes to escape her father's fate, she'll have to quickly master her craft before facing down the world's most powerful mystics."​

Source:
Zatanna

In this website you can see image from the comics themselves of her using a book by Aleister Crowley (Who is a well known Satanist). You can also see the the Necronomicon, as well.

The religion of Zatanna (Zatanna Zatara)

Crowley, Necronomicon, dark arks, and study of alchemy is sorcery, not witchcraft, making her a magician or sorceress, not a witch. Notice nowhere in there does she get called a witch. Because she’s not. Her doing high magic is the basis of her entire character.

Psychics, wicca, telepathy, and all that other junk is in the same camp as sorcery and witchcraft because they all operate from the power of the devil's kingdom.

You can say it as many times as you’d like, but insisting there is no difference in these practices does not suddenly make it so. You may believe that they’re all of the devil, and that’s your prerogative, but it doesn’t mean the fundamentals of the practices are the same.

There are cheeseburgers, there are salads, there are chicken nuggets, and there are French fries... You might believe they all come from McDonalds, but that doesn’t mean there is no difference between a cheeseburger and a salad.

Try putting these things out of your life for a while and just follow Jesus alone and see what happens. Ask the Lord to show you the truth on this topic. I know in time, the Lord will reveal the same truth to me as He will for you.

So... I’m Methodist...

Is your suggestion that because I have a better understanding of comics than you, I should renounce my faith in Jesus to follow you to follow Jesus...? Kind of like how you said people who read content who outline magic and witchcraft and sorcery (such as comics) should renounce it because it goes against God... But then you yourself look it up, read it, copy, paste, and share it on the thread you told us that we shouldn’t so you could prove you have superior knowledge in comics AND metaphysical practices vs somebody else?

Yeah, I’m ok with my relationship with God and myself and my faith and my spirituality. I’m not better than anybody else, I’m not ashamed of the knowledge I have, I’m content to speak about what I know openly and honestly. Thanks though.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...You want me to give you a Biblical example that innate gifts that people have aren’t sinful...? Because God knowing us before we are born and having the birth of his son predicted by astrologers and psychics was, what...?

The magi were not astrologers!
That is a common misconception even by Christians.

Read this article here:
Is astrology permitted in the Bible? What about the wise men visiting Jesus when He was born?

Since I never claimed there weren’t problems with some beliefs and practices, only that I’m apparently more educated in the community and it’s dynamics than you appear to be.

Also that somebody you said was a witch wasn’t, both because she doesn’t have the ethos and also because she’s fictional.

Do you still talk on this forum and or still run it? I say this because if you do, you cannot see the truth of something sometimes unless you come out of it and completely reject it. For example: When you accepted Jesus as your Savior, are there not things in your life that became clear to you that you could not see before?

Also, just because something is fictional does not mean that it is okay to promote sinful things within fiction. Sinful things within fiction can still effect you. There are demonic forces desiring people to watch sinful things because it effects their thinking in some way. But if a person is a child of light in Christ's kingdom, these things will start to have less and less appeal to them and they will want to eventually put them out of their life.

Psychics are different than witches are different than magicians are different than witchcraft. None of these terms are interchangeable.

They may have different names and different ways of practices, but they are still operating by the power of the evil one. There are similarities in the way they operate.

And if we are talking Miss Cleo psychics, obviously there’s a lot of Biblical support against that kind of lying and theft. If we are talking about psychic psychics, anybody with even a passing understanding of the Bible knows that the word of God comes through spontaneous visions, unknown insights, voices, and other “unexplainable” means.

Oh boy. This is crazy. If I understood you correctly it sounded like you just compared the Bible on the same level as good or legit psychics. Alright, the difference is that we are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God or not. God's ways are loving and good and they lead you into paths of righteousness and true love. God's Word is founded upon the truth. There is no other holy book like the Bible out there. No other book compares to like a vision or some other person's so called psychic experience. God's Word is proven to be divine in origin and has many evidences backing it up.

Check out my Blogger article here to see the many evidences that back up God's Word as being true and divine in origin:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

In other words, the Bible claims to be the Word of God and it has the credentials to prove it. Nothing else compares to the Bible by a long shot. People have accepted deception from false prophets, and unproven visions and strange dreams and they prefer it over what the Word of God says. This is what the enemy wants to do to people. He wants to deceive them and lead them into a path of darkness that cannot escape from unless they call out to Jesus to save them from such darkness.

Jesus can open our eyes to the truth on such things.
My encouragement is do not believe me.
But ask Jesus to reveal the truth on the things that I have said.
For God's Word condemns astrology, and psychic practices, etc.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Divination is a practice, not an ability. Being good at divination is an ability. That can be equal parts natural ability and study, or more natural ability and less study, or all study and no natural ability. Like math, some people are naturally good at it, some people have to work hard at it.

And as guns rights advocates have led me to believe, if a few or even a very vocal minority are bad, that doesn’t mean I am and they aren’t reflective of the whole of the community.

So being natural great at divination is not an ability aka a gift? A gift not from the Lord.

Being good at math is not an abomination. Deut 18 lists abominations.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Crowley, Necronomicon, dark arks, and study of alchemy is sorcery, not witchcraft, making her a magician or sorceress, not a witch. Notice nowhere in there does she get called a witch. Because she’s not. Her doing high magic is the basis of her entire character.

Alright, forget the words "witch" for a moment okay. Do you honestly think she is operating by some good power or by some dark power? If she has Satanic books, that tells me she is operating by the power of Satan and not God.

You can say it as many times as you’d like, but insisting there is no difference in these practices does not suddenly make it so. You may believe that they’re all of the devil, and that’s your prerogative, but it doesn’t mean the fundamentals of the practices are the same.

Look. I am not asking you to blindly believe me. I want you to ask Jesus to reveal the truth to you on this topic. Ask Jesus honestly if all these things are of the devil's kingdom and then do some searches on the internet.

There are cheeseburgers, there are salads, there are chicken nuggets, and there are French fries... You might believe they all come from McDonalds, but that doesn’t mean there is no difference between a cheeseburger and a salad.

I understand that is what you think, but ask the Lord for the truth on this one, and He will reveal it to you. If you prefer to not see it, then that is your choice to see things as you desire to see them. The Bible always paints a clear distinction between false prophets and God's prophets. In 1 Kings 22:19-23, King Ahab who rejected the Word of the Lord and preferred the lies of the false prophets instead of trusting the prophets of God was no doubt blinded by his own deception.

Why did God use a lying spirit to deceive Ahab?

So... I’m Methodist...

I am only trying to reveal the truth to you. If you give up all these questionable practices as being okay with God or neutral to the Lord, and you just trust what His Word says alone and you follow Jesus alone in what He says and you ask Him to show you the truth, He will reveal the truth to you. Do you want the truth?

Is your suggestion that because I have a better understanding of comics than you,

I used to be a huge collector of Marvel comics and I was even planning to work for them as an artist, but I am glad God protected me from that kind of life. DC and Marvel comics put forth many sinful things within their comic books and they lead many into sin with their books. In 2016, after I watched the Luke Cage series on Netflix, I had enough. I could not take it any longer. I tried to ignore the sinful things in these movies and shows and the sinful things being pushed at me kept getting louder and louder. After that show, I had put away my secular fiction movie watching for good. After I did that. The Lord started to immediately show me a few days later the dark things that were in them after talking to my wife about it.

I should renounce my faith in Jesus to follow you to follow Jesus...?

Not all Christ's are the same. There are other Jesus's out there that are false Christs. The Bible warns us about these false Christs. We have to be aware of the devil's deceptions. Oh, and no. I am not telling you to deny Jesus. Nowhere did I ever say such a thing. That is your own false assumption about what you think I am proposing that does not exist. I am asking you to ask Jesus to reveal the truth to you on what you think are good psychics or other strange phenomena that is clearly not mentioned as being from God. Ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you and He will. If not, then that is your choice to not see.

Kind of like how you said people who read content who outline magic and witchcraft and sorcery (such as comics) should renounce it because it goes against God... But then you yourself look it up, read it, copy, paste, and share it on the thread you told us that we shouldn’t so you could prove you have superior knowledge in comics AND metaphysical practices vs somebody else?

The pages I posted are mild generic sources describing those things and they are to reveal the truth and they are not there for anyone to indulge in those things. Clearly I am condemning these things. But I am not posting to you websites or links or videos to what I believe are really really really evil things. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about and you probably wouldn't even see a problem with some of them. But the point here is that I know the difference between posting general mentions of something vs. showing pure evil communication like a YouTube video of people chanting a spell or something.

Yeah, I’m ok with my relationship with God and myself and my faith and my spirituality. I’m not better than anybody else, I’m not ashamed of the knowledge I have, I’m content to speak about what I know openly and honestly. Thanks though.

So you are saying you do not want to grow in the knowledge of the Lord?
But what if you are wrong?
What if psychics and other strange phenomena (that you think are harmless and okay) are in fact evil and satanic?
Do you think God is okay if we practice in the dark arts?
Does not Revelation 21:8 condemn sorcery?
Maybe God's definition of this word is more broad than your definition of it?
Do you really want to take a chance and play games and be wrong?
I sure wouldn't.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...You want me to give you a Biblical example that innate gifts that people have aren’t sinful...? Because God knowing us before we are born and having the birth of his son predicted by astrologers and psychics was, what...?

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Magi had special psychic powers or that they were astrologers. My point was for you to present evidence in the Bible for the practice of one supposedly using good psychic powers or abilities or strange visions that are outside of God's power.

Since I never claimed there weren’t problems with some beliefs and practices, only that I’m apparently more educated in the community and it’s dynamics than you appear to be. Also that somebody you said was a witch wasn’t, both because she doesn’t have the ethos and also because she’s fictional.

Only the Lord can reveal the truth to you on this. Anything I will say will be as if I am speaking some foreign language to you.

Yes, I can see where that part where I said there were definite issues, spiritual concerns, practices, and beliefs that were dangerous would directly translate to me saying there’s no problem with it.

Psychics are different than witches are different than magicians are different than witchcraft. None of these terms are interchangeable.

The practices might be different, but that does not mean that they are not all operating by the power of the enemy. Let's do a test. Ask a faithful Christian who is against all forms of psychic work and other junk to go to a person in who you believe is a good psychic. Ask this Christian to bind the psychics powers in the name of Jesus for this supposedly good psychic and see what happens. If this person you ask is truly a faithful dedicated follower of Christ and they bind the workings of this supposedly good psychic, it will turn out like with the prophets of Baal who could not do anything miraculous before Elijah.

And if we are talking Miss Cleo psychics, obviously there’s a lot of Biblical support against that kind of lying and theft. If we are talking about psychic psychics, anybody with even a passing understanding of the Bible knows that the word of God comes through spontaneous visions, unknown insights, voices, and other “unexplainable” means.

No.

Read this article here:

What is the Christian view of psychics / fortune tellers?

 

[HTacianas]

I've heard of some Catholics that do not believe there is a devil, and yet others conduct exorcisms. It doesn't seem like you believe there is a devil either. Is that just you or the entire EO church?

Red herring - Wikipedia

 

[1stcenturylady]

You dont believe that the church does not have Christian Witches that infultrate the congregation?

Doing what? Have you ever come out and said what you mean???

There is no such thing as a "Christian" witch.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Red herring - Wikipedia

Evasive!

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Doing what? Have you ever come out and said what you mean???

There is no such thing as a "Christian" witch.

There are Christian Witches.

What response are you expecting from "what i mean"?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

...You want me to give you a Biblical example that innate gifts that people have aren’t sinful...? Because God knowing us before we are born and having the birth of his son predicted by astrologers and psychics was, what...?



Since I never claimed there weren’t problems with some beliefs and practices, only that I’m apparently more educated in the community and it’s dynamics than you appear to be.

Also that somebody you said was a witch wasn’t, both because she doesn’t have the ethos and also because she’s fictional.



Yes, I can see where that part where I said there were definite issues, spiritual concerns, practices, and beliefs that were dangerous would directly translate to me saying there’s no problem with it.



Psychics are different than witches are different than magicians are different than witchcraft. None of these terms are interchangeable.

And if we are talking Miss Cleo psychics, obviously there’s a lot of Biblical support against that kind of lying and theft. If we are talking about psychic psychics, anybody with even a passing understanding of the Bible knows that the word of God comes through spontaneous visions, unknown insights, voices, and other “unexplainable” means.

Since you support being a psychic ...can you please tell us what that entails?

According to the Holy Spirit I serve it throws up severe red flags.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Doing what? Have you ever come out and said what you mean???

There is no such thing as a "Christian" witch.

Look onto christianwitches.com.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Here's some interesting information for this thread.

The First English Translation of The Bible by John Wycliff in 1382 A.D. made from The Latin Vulgate says "Witches" in Revelation 21:8. Check it out:

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:8 - Wycliffe Bible


But To Fearedful Men, and Unbelieveful, and Cursed, and Man-Quellers, and Fornicators, And To WITCHES, and to Worshippers Of Idols, and To All Liars, The Part Of Them Shall Be In The Pool Burning With Fire And Brimstone, that is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8. Wycliffe Bible


But the Cowardly, and Unbelieving, and the Abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and SORCERERS, and Idolaters, and All Liars, Shall Have Their Part In The Lake Which Burneth With Fire And Brimstone: which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8. NKJV

 

[Carl Emerson]

Natsumi,

I have also come out of a dark past.

Some are gifted to 'see' the spiritual realm and some are not. Hence many folks here speak from what they know or dont know... bless them.

I remember one day having lunch with my mum and I started to feel very uneasy. I was able to sense what direction it was coming from. Mum followed me out around the back of the house and down the boundary. Sure enough the neighbour was divining for water and I was picking up on the spirit of divination.

These gifts I have are in His hands and He uses them from time to time. I used to help run a drop in centre for at risk youth and He would show me exactly when a trouble maker was entering the building.

We currently work with folks coming out of addiction and without gifts of discernment operating we would be mince-meat.

If you are called to the cutting edge of the kingdom where there is a power encounter (the enemy doesnt give up territory easily - including human souls...) Then discernment gifts are critical.

I am deeply thankful to be free to serve Jesus and deal with spiritual opposition when the occasion arises.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Look onto christianwitches.com.

This is your post and you are just now providing a link? Sorry, I left my crystal ball in my other cloak.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

This is your post and you are just now providing a link? Sorry, I left my crystal ball in my other cloak.

And crystal balls don’t have WiFi, another pitfall of magic and divination.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Magi had special psychic powers or that they were astrologers. TL;DR

Listen, I’m at the point where I realize you’re not having this discussion with me to convince me of anything, you’re having a discussion with yourself to make yourself feel better about where you stand spiritually. If that’s what you need, then go for it and I will give it a gander.

That said, I only have so much energy, and spending it trying to explain the metaphysical to somebody who wants to take pride in his abstaining in secular entertainment as it is sinful and cajoles others into doing it because that’s what God wants, but still wants to be accepted as an unquestioned expert in secular entertainment and drops links to things he says is sinful (unless he needs it for an online debate he’s losing) is not where I choose to spend my energy.

Some people want to be right, some people want to be loudly wrong, and some people are happy with their knowledge, choose sanity, and leave it at that. I’m the last one.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So being natural great at divination is not an ability aka a gift? A gift not from the Lord.

No, what I’m saying is that you’re using the word “divination” as a verb when it was a noun or adverb. Saying the “gift of divination” is like saying being given the gift of cooking, the gift of color, the gift of pictures, the gift of math.

You don’t get those things... Some have the gift of cooking better than others, to see colors better than others, to take photos better than others, or do do math better than others, but you don’t automatically start with the gift of math. The talent or aptitude towards cooking better, seeing colors more vividly, taking better pictures, or learning math faster is the gift, not “math” or “colors.”

It’s an important differentiation because that means divination is one of those things anybody “can” do, like math. Not everybody can be good at it.

So when you’re faced with somebody who says “I can do divination,” you know that you can say in response “everybody with $20 and an Amazon account to buy Tarot Cards with can do divination. This is not inherently special or a gift.” When they follow up by saying “no, I have a gift because I can make X, Y, and Z happen” you can say “X is coincidence, Y is the success you want to see and not really a talent, but Z? If that happened, that’s messed up and you are doing what you shouldn’t be doing.” Just saying “it’s all bad” to somebody means you’re not seeking to hear them, inform them, and change them.

You’re like a person yelling “don’t pee on the carpet” at a toddler standing in front of a puddle on the carpet when the toddler didn’t actually cause the wet spot. The toddler will either think “well I didn’t pee” and ignore you,” or tell you “I didn’t pee” and write you off as another old fart who thinks they know everything but doesn’t.

Figure out what the puddle is before you start yelling at the toddler.

Being good at math is not an abomination.

There was a time less than 200 years ago where the Bible was used to show that learning math was an abomination, and a time less than 150 years ago where it was used to say women and minorities learning math was an abomination, so I guess it all depends on who you ask and how we have evolved as a society...

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Since you support being a psychic ...can you please tell us what that entails?

According to the Holy Spirit I serve it throws up severe red flags.

I don’t support being a psychic any more than I support being naturally good at using a knife. It’s a thing. It just is. One cannot alter it. One can’t support being it or not being it. It just is.

Have natural psychic powers. Don’t have them. I don’t care. One can’t control being naturally good at things or not naturally good at things. You don’t wake up and say “I think I’ll be naturally good at being psychic today.”

If you’re going to have natural psychic talent and use it in ways that are bad or dangerous or harmful to you or others, that’s where you go wrong.

If you’re good with a knife and you use it to kill your neighbor, saying “well I’m just good with knives, it’s my talent” that isn’t an excuse. You control the talent, not the possession or receiving of the talent.

Having the ability doesn’t make you bad, being a jerk about how you use it does.

Same with psychic powers. Simply having them doesn’t make you bad. I suspect an overwhelming majority of the people you know believe they have some sort of gift of sight or gut feelings or intuition or whatever they want to call it. That doesn’t make them automatically bad. Telling them they’re automatically bad or dabbling with the devil gut feelings or intuition makes you the one in the wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Listen, I’m at the point where I realize you’re not having this discussion with me to convince me of anything, you’re having a discussion with yourself to make yourself feel better about where you stand spiritually. If that’s what you need, then go for it and I will give it a gander.

That said, I only have so much energy, and spending it trying to explain the metaphysical to somebody who wants to take pride in his abstaining in secular entertainment as it is sinful and cajoles others into doing it because that’s what God wants, but still wants to be accepted as an unquestioned expert in secular entertainment and drops links to things he says is sinful (unless he needs it for an online debate he’s losing) is not where I choose to spend my energy.

Some people want to be right, some people want to be loudly wrong, and some people are happy with their knowledge, choose sanity, and leave it at that. I’m the last one.

I drop links because they lead to information that can help to further educate you on this topic. Knowledge should not be your enemy. If I wanted to just be right and for you to be wrong (with no basis or foundation upon the truth) I would attack your character and I would not ask for you to try to prove your case biblically and I would not provide any kind of links to help you at all. But you have chosen to see what you want to see. This does not mean God cannot reveal the truth to you (Whether you want to see that or not). It is my hope and pray that God will show you what I am talking about (in the proper timing).

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you (even if we disagree).