dms1972

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No argument from me. I do not have a dog in this hunt. It just seemed that there was information available that if it was me...…...would not have been. That is all I was saying.

Here is something else from Charlotte von Kirschbaum - Wikipedia

"The long-standing relationship was not without its difficulties. The relationship caused offense among some of Barth's friends, as well as his mother and brothers. Barth's children suffered from the stress of the relationship between Barth and his wife, and "Lollo", as her friends and Barth called Charlotte, once wrote to Barth's sister Gertrud Lindt in 1935, where she expressed her concern about the precarious situation:

The alienation between Karl and Nelly has reached a degree which could hardly increase. This has certainly become accentuated by my existence."

Barth found her indispensable as a secretary, I don't know if he discussed intellectually with her his theological ideas, but its thought that he would not have produced a lot of his writing without her. I think he had become emotionally and perhaps intellectually dependent on her.
 
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dms1972

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That's not what was happening. Here are two good articles. The first describes the relationship in more detail, as well as Barth's own understanding of it. The second is an interesting reaction to the implications for our appreciation of his theology. (Incidentally, it's not absolutely certain that there was literal adultery, although that doesn't make it any better.)

A Bright and Bleak Constellation: Karl Barth, Nelly Barth and Charlotte von Kirschbaum

Mark Galli – Evangelicals and Karl Barth's Adultery [Interview]

Ok, I have read about half way through the first, and its a good article. Mark Galli I think bandies the term 'steadfast adultery' about too readily. He has written a book, aimed at selling Barth to evangelicals, I have not read it, but why do evangelicals need Barth to help them avoid the morass of subjectivism? That is a major part of the whole debate over Barth btw, whether his theology and his rejection of Inerrancy allows him and his followers to escape from subjectivism. Why don't they just return to Calvin, or some of the other reformers?

Oh and as confusing and painful for his wife as it was I think literal adultery would have made it worse.
 
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dms1972

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If the OP is still checking, there has been plenty written about Barth and his theology, some of it is sympathetic while other writers are polemically opposed. Here a selection of both.

Amongst those sympathetic (and sometimes critical) to Barth's Theology have been:

GC Berkower: The Triumph of Grace in the Theology of Karl Barth
Donald Bloesch: Christian Foundations
Bernhard Ramm: After Fundamentalism
Hans Urs Von Baltazar: The Theology of Karl Barth: Exposition and Interpretation

Opposed to Barth's theology:

Cornelius Van Til: The New Modernism
Francis Schaeffer: The God Who is There
Gordon Clark: Karl Barth's Theological Method
 
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FireDragon76

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That may very well be the case. However It is difficult to reconcile the utter strangeness of a man who lived in awe of a holy God while subjecting his wife and children to the indignity and inappropriateness of a live-in mistress, but this also was part of the mystery of Karl Barth. His research assistant, Charlotte von Kirschbaur, was a fixture in both his professional life and in his home.

Do the work for yourself at.....What to Make of Karl Barth’s Steadfast Adultery

That would not shock me or surprise me. Paul Tillich's wife was into menage-a-trois. Liberal theology has alot of colorful characters. But I think that's part of what makes it appealing. Rather than people that wear pious masks, its full of people struggling with their own humanity and the ideals of religion.

In Europe, attitudes about sexuality were and are far different than in the US. If most American evangelicals knew of C.S. Lewis' intimate relationships, for instance, they would be shocked as well.
 
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Major1

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Barth found her indispensable as a secretary, I don't know if he discussed intellectually with her his theological ideas, but its thought that he would not have produced a lot of his writing without her. I think he had become emotionally and perhaps intellectually dependent on her.

That is what many people have said in his defense and I have NO problem with that.

I am only suggesting that anyone who is in such a position should have been more careful in his actions as we are all judged by our actions more than our words.
 
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Major1

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That would not shock me or surprise me. Paul Tillich's wife was into menage-a-trois. Liberal theology has alot of colorful characters. But I think that's part of what makes it appealing. Rather than people that wear pious masks, its full of people struggling with their own humanity and the ideals of religion.

In Europe, attitudes about sexuality were and are far different than in the US. If most American evangelicals knew of C.S. Lewis' intimate relationships, for instance, they would be shocked as well.

It shocked me as well. So did the actions of Jimmy Swagert.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Hi there, my name is Victoria, and I am currently in Bible college and one of my current classes is Christian Theology and I am really confused. I am reading a book called Evangelical Theology written by Karl Barth, and I am just overall confused, what is theology? What is the point to theology?

Theology currently does not make any sense to me, is there any way that someone would be able to explain theology to me in a way that would make sense to me and help me understand what is going on. I have to read a bunch of the book, and tomorrow I have a quiz on a different theology book from the same class. I just do not know what to do as theology is seeming to make no sense to me. Thanks!
I am curious. How did you end up in Bible college without at least a passing awareness of theology?
 
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PloverWing

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[Staff edit].

One of the issues is that many theologians express their ideas in terms of philosophical concepts and vocabulary that are unfamiliar if you haven't studied that school of philosophy. Consider the early theologians who developed the doctrines of the Trinity and of orthodox Christology. They speak of the relationship between "substance", "person", and "nature" (or, rather, the Greek and Latin counterparts to those English words), with all of these words having technical philosophical meanings that are different from how a 21st century American uses the words in everyday speech. It's easy to get lost in all that. I remember it took me forever to grasp what was wrong with Nestorianism, for example.

Another problem is that not every theologian writes clearly, in a way that connects with every reader. Kierkegaard is an important thinker, but I find him very difficult to read. Similarly with St. Augustine.

A third problem, particular to the university situation, is that professors don't always explain things well, and curricula aren't always designed well, because university faculty are flawed human beings and we make mistakes. If a professor tells the class that Barth builds on Augustine and Calvin, and changes their ideas in thus-and-so way, but the professor forgot to tell the class what the ideas of Augustine and Calvin are, then the class will be lost in that explanation. Or maybe the professor assumed that the students had studied Augustine and Calvin in an earlier course, but the students missed that prerequisite somehow. Mistakes like this can lead to bewildered students.

These kinds of problems can happen when everybody loves God, and everybody is trying to do the right thing, but we have human limitations.
 
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Major1

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One of the issues is that many theologians express their ideas in terms of philosophical concepts and vocabulary that are unfamiliar if you haven't studied that school of philosophy. Consider the early theologians who developed the doctrines of the Trinity and of orthodox Christology. They speak of the relationship between "substance", "person", and "nature" (or, rather, the Greek and Latin counterparts to those English words), with all of these words having technical philosophical meanings that are different from how a 21st century American uses the words in everyday speech. It's easy to get lost in all that. I remember it took me forever to grasp what was wrong with Nestorianism, for example.

Another problem is that not every theologian writes clearly, in a way that connects with every reader. Kierkegaard is an important thinker, but I find him very difficult to read. Similarly with St. Augustine.

A third problem, particular to the university situation, is that professors don't always explain things well, and curricula aren't always designed well, because university faculty are flawed human beings and we make mistakes. If a professor tells the class that Barth builds on Augustine and Calvin, and changes their ideas in thus-and-so way, but the professor forgot to tell the class what the ideas of Augustine and Calvin are, then the class will be lost in that explanation. Or maybe the professor assumed that the students had studied Augustine and Calvin in an earlier course, but the students missed that prerequisite somehow. Mistakes like this can lead to bewildered students.

These kinds of problems can happen when everybody loves God, and everybody is trying to do the right thing, but we have human limitations.

I hear you but don't you agree that Christianity is not based in "philosophical concepts".

Christianity is first and foremost based and rooted in the person of Jesus Christ and His gospel and story is only found in the Bible. When we have that fact established, and then go to school we can filter out the erroneous teachings of professors.

I also had some "thinkers" in seminary who had some radical teachings but I had the God given sense to go beyond the limits of their words and their un-biblical teachings to see and grasp the words of God found in His Word.
 
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timothyu

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What a different world this would be if the Jewish Christians had won out over the gentile Christians in establishing the Jesus movement. But God had a better plan in forwarding scripture about His Son using the gentiles whom He knew would revert the movement back to a human worldly institution.

Nicely tucked away in plain sight among the writings of gentile folk heros, Jesus' truth has lived to this day, while the Jerusalem of Jesus fell and the Jews scattered plus the Jewish Christians absorbed into the gentile church. Safely wrapped up in a worldly system unaware of the danger to it's own existence it carries within in the counter-culture of the Kingdom. No wonder so few find it. They are not looking for it.
 
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hedrick

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Like subtle twists to make a Jewish movement more gentile?
There's actually something to be said for this viewpoint. Certainly most contemporary theology is based on a renewed understanding of the Jewish background of the NT.
 
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Major1

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There's actually something to be said for this viewpoint. Certainly most contemporary theology is based on a renewed understanding of the Jewish background of the NT.

Wasn't the apostles and 1st church all Jewish believers?
 
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hedrick

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Wasn't the apostles and 1st church all Jewish believers?
If the concern is "intricate theology", it's probably better traced to the Apologists of the 2nd Century. Jewish ideas were considered barbarism by Greeks. The apologists tried to connect Christianity with Greek philosophy, reinterpreting Christianity in Greek terms. There was certainly good reason to do that, in support of the mission of the Church. But any translation involves some loss. The next few centuries of theology, in my view, showed the problems with that translation, though the benefits are also obvious.

Paul also reinterpreted theology for Gentiles. But his interpretation didn't involve the kinds of concepts people tend to be thinking of when they talk about this. But even his reinterpretation had their own lists of difficult problems. Just what did he mean by justification by faith? And just how does it relate to Jesus' call for obedience. You can make the connections, but the NT itself tells us that Paul is hard to understand.

However I think the last few postings have been about things that are better traced to the Apologists than Paul.
 
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timothyu

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The apologists tried to connect Christianity with Greek philosophy, reinterpreting Christianity in Greek terms. There was certainly good reason to do that, in support of the mission of the Church.
But what about the mission of Jesus?
 
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hedrick

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But what about the mission of Jesus?
I meant the mission to go into all the world. He gave us that. That implies communicating with everyone. There are always questions about how much you’re willing to use ideas of other cultures to explain the Gospel. It’s possibld to go too far and distort it. But to some extend to preach to a different culture you have to use their terms. Historically, the translation into the intellectual framework of late antiquity worked well. Christianity took over. But there were also compromises. Different people may disagree whether it was justified.
 
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