I have a question about the Trinity.

throughfiierytrial

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The study did not come from someone else's interpretation. It came from comparing other places the word of phrase is used in the Scripture.

Hebrew words can be combinations of other Hebrew words to convey a meaning. Hebrew is a descriptor language. It describes actions to convey an idea.

For example "angry" is derived from two Hebrew words that literally mean "snorting nostril". Now is it "big snorting nostril" or "little snorting nostril to convey "rage" or "annoyance". Some of that is partially the weight of interoperation the translator gives to the "word picture".

"The everlasting" in "everlasting Father" comes from a prime root meaning "to advance". The remainder of the word conveys "of status old age". So since we know Jesus did not "advance as to the old age of the Father" (Jesus's Divinity is without beginning and without end, just as the Father's is. So thus this must not be literal "advance to the status of old age"; yet means "to advance to status of eternal Father". How and why did He do that?

The answer is in Ephesians 1:21-22; when all dominions and powers and principalities are put under Jesus's Kingship upon rising from the dead. He was not ordinated "King" before that; at least within the confides of time He hadn't yet.

Now in eternity, that's a different story. The atonement took place within the boundaries of time, but also outside of those boundaries within "eternity". This is why and how Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world".

Eternity is capable of interjecting into time, but is not capable of being confined by time; so thus happens both in eternity as well as in time.

The concept of something happening at any point in eternity (which is timeless) is hard for us to grasp because we are so confined to time. We think of time along a linear line. It goes forward or backward but not left or right. In eternity though, there is no direction and anything that will happen in time was already established, (in a sense already having happened) in eternity. Eternity is like unto another dimension where "time" as we understand it, does not exist.

So to get back to the phrase "advance to the old age of Father" That is something that occurred as part of the atonement in time; yet oddly already existed as a reality in eternity.

Don't know if that makes sense to you?
I believe I already understood eternity and our time. You do not explain why Jesus is not the Eternal Father...which is what I dispute.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I'd done a study once on the phrase in this verse "Everlasting Father" because of the very issue of modalism people confuse.

Jesus and the Father are not the same entity. Of their Divinity, they are the same substance, but not the same person. The Hebrew in that passage implied "elevated to the status of Everlasting Father" and this was not to say that the Divinity of the Son was less than the Divinity of the Father; only that the joining of the Divine nature to a human nature still had to be "tried" in the created world.

Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered, which prepared Him ultimately for the task He would accomplish. As Adam was created with the ability to make choices independent of what God desired, so was Jesus. The difference being of course that Adam did not have a Divine nature as part of his personhood. This is why Adam sinned, because as a created being that was 100% tied to this temporal world, Adam could only be corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Jesus though, being conceived by the Holy Ghost was incorruptible by the knowledge of good and evil. We know Jesus possessed this knowledge as part of His Divine nature and the proof that He was incorruptible was that He didn't sin.

Ephesians 1:21-22 tells us that Jesus obtained His status as reigning King upon being raised from the dead. This is the "elevated to status of the Everlasting Father" He obtained as God/man on account of His own personal obedience as well as following the Father's plan.

Jesus maintained an intense interest in obedience, not just out of His own personal desire for holiness, but for the sake of the glory of the Father (in which following the plan glorified the Father because the Son's willingness to take on the atonement showed forth in the best possible way the love of God).

In following the plan and taking on the atonement, the Father glorified the Son for what He'd accomplished in "giving" the (Him He'd now become as both Divine and created entity), the creation He'd atoned for. This is why Jesus said "glorify me with your own self with the glory I once had with you before the world was." (The Son had that glory prior to being incarnated.) And in verse 1 of John 17 "Father the hour has now come, glorify your son so your son may also glorify you." Glorifying the Father was more important to Jesus than his own personal destruction. And that is evidence of the great love God is by nature.

So, another aspect of the nature of the relationships within the Trinity as they worked to execute this plan they'd conceived of from the foundations of the world.
Are you or are you not trying to disprove the Trinity? You seem to take issue with my citation of Isaiah 9:6-7 passages as holding up the Trinity doctrine. In my view one can read these passages and all the meaning they ascribe to the Godhead is very clearly a Trinity more clearly than what you set out in human terms. Many of your points are really your own human assumptions while some are supported by Scripture. Why did you find the need to go outside Scripture?
 
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The Righterzpen

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Are you or are you not trying to disprove the Trinity? You seem to take issue with my citation of Isaiah 9:6-7 passages as holding up the Trinity doctrine. In my view one can read these passages and all the meaning they ascribe to the Godhead is very clearly a Trinity more clearly than what you set out in human terms. Many of your points are really your own human assumptions while some are supported by Scripture. Why did you find the need to go outside Scripture?

And what do you think I "set out in human terms"? You seem confused. Did you not read the first sentence I wrote about being wary not to fall into modalism. The Father, Son and Spirit are separate persons.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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And what do you think I "set out in human terms"? You seem confused. Did you not read the first sentence I wrote about being wary not to fall into modalism. The Father, Son and Spirit are separate persons.
They are separate yet One.
 
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Neogaia777

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They are separate yet One.
I don't know about "separate", and, yes, "One", but do they have "distinctions" from one another...? Differences that are unique to them, and that maybe they have, or know more or less about, or have more or less in abundance, than the other ones...? Or can that not apply to The Triune Being...?

How are they equal yet not the same...? And how can they be...? And does that make for distinctions...? (among them)...? If they are not, (the same or equal), ect...?

And does that make any one of them "entirely knowledgeable", if there are differences or distinctions among them, since they would have unique knowledge/abilities, or whatever; but, "knowledge" that they would know more about than one of the other ones would or do (know about, ect), or we would say they would be knowing less, than the other one(s) in some areas, and maybe some "more so" in some areas than others or the other ones, less in others, ect...

Does any of this apply...?

God Bless!
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I don't know about "separate", and, yes, "One", but do they have "distinctions" from one another...? Differences that are unique to them, and that maybe they have, or know more or less about, or have more or less in abundance, than the other ones...? Or can that not apply to The Triune Being...?

How are they equal yet not the same...? And how can they be...? And does that make for distinctions...? (among them)...? If they are not, (the same or equal), ect...?

And does that make any one of them "entirely knowledgeable", if there are differences or distinctions among them, since they would have unique knowledge/abilities, or whatever; but, "knowledge" that they would know more about than one of the other ones would or do (know about, ect), or we would say they would be knowing less, than the other one(s) in some areas, and maybe some "more so" in some areas than others or the other ones, less in others, ect...

Does any of this apply...?

God Bless!
The three persons are One and that oneness is very important for God says...

Deuteronomy 6:4:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

The work that each "person" of the Trinity is known to us also; how the persons interrelate is less known except where Jesus says...
John 5:19-20:
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.

I believe I'd get myself into trouble if I were to say I have exact knowledge of the godhead...it is imperfect knowledge...we see dimly here. Similarly I believe it would be a mistake on my part to say because it doesn't make logical sense to me it is not nor can it be true.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I don't know about "separate", and, yes, "One", but do they have "distinctions" from one another...? Differences that are unique to them, and that maybe they have, or know more or less about, or have more or less in abundance, than the other ones...? Or can that not apply to The Triune Being...?

How are they equal yet not the same...? And how can they be...? And does that make for distinctions...? (among them)...? If they are not, (the same or equal), ect...?

And does that make any one of them "entirely knowledgeable", if there are differences or distinctions among them, since they would have unique knowledge/abilities, or whatever; but, "knowledge" that they would know more about than one of the other ones would or do (know about, ect), or we would say they would be knowing less, than the other one(s) in some areas, and maybe some "more so" in some areas than others or the other ones, less in others, ect...

Does any of this apply...?

God Bless!
Some great discussion on this topic in another thread also.

First Church Orthodox or Catholic?

The Trinity is Not A Problem, It's A Solution | Cold Case Christianity

One of the best descriptions of the Triune God of Christianity was offered in the Athanasian Creed of the 4th Century:

“…we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal… And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct? But how can that be? Isn't the worship of one God in three distinct persons worshipping three different Gods? Where in scripture has it been said that the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.
Acts 5:3,4 “But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, ..,thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.”
 
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createdtoworship

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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct? But how can that be? Isn't the worship of one God in three distinct persons worshipping three different Gods? Where in scripture has it been said that the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.
I just read another verse that proves the trinity:


"That they may be one as we are one" John 17:11

This prayer is dominated by the theme of unity. Jesus prays not only for unity among his disciples (v.11), but also for the church (v.20). He prays for a unity like that which unites the Trinity.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I just read another verse that proves the trinity:


"That they may be one as we are one" John 17:11

This prayer is dominated by the theme of unity. Jesus prays not only for unity among his disciples (v.11), but also for the church (v.20). He prays for a unity like that which unites the Trinity.
This unity that Jesus makes evident in the passages you cite is no mere human word but is a profound mystery. Here are more passages to bring out this fact:
Ephesians 5:29-32:
After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church
 
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dstamps

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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct? But how can that be? Isn't the worship of one God in three distinct persons worshipping three different Gods? Where in scripture has it been said that the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.
Man is in the image of GOD. Therefore, Man is a trinity in the same sense that GOD is a Trinity. Jesus states in Mark 12:30 that Man has a heart, soul, and mind plus a body (implied by 'all thy strength'). Each of the 3 planes of spiritual existence serve a different purpose within a living being. Man's heart is where the living being's purpose is initiated (Cause level 'future actions'). Man's Soul is always in the present (Expression level 'now'). Man's Mind is where a living being's thoughts happen (Manifestation level 'past'). When we become aware of our thoughts, they have already happened. With this in mind, are you 'One'?
How Man is in GOD's Image
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Man is in the image of GOD. Therefore, Man is a trinity in the same sense that GOD is a Trinity. Jesus states in Mark 12:30 that Man has a heart, soul, and mind plus a body (implied by 'all thy strength'). Each of the 3 planes of spiritual existence serve a different purpose within a living being. Man's heart is where the living being's purpose is initiated (Cause level 'future actions'). Man's Soul is always in the present (Expression level 'now'). Man's Mind is where a living being's thoughts happen (Manifestation level 'past'). When we become aware of our thoughts, they have already happened. With this in mind, are you 'One'?
How Man is in GOD's Image
You cannot, in my view claim that man is a Trinity...that is "going beyond what is written" and "running ahead" which we are not to do. You are using man's logic...poorly (IMO) to prove a profound spiritual truth which really is an impossible task.
 
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dstamps

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You cannot, in my view claim that man is a Trinity...that is "going beyond what is written" and "running ahead" which we are not to do. You are using man's logic...poorly (IMO) to prove a profound spiritual truth which really is an impossible task.
You can't have it both ways. If Man is in GOD's Image and GOD is a Trinity, then Man must also be a trinity. We know we aren't 3 persons in one, but we are one living being existing on 3 planes of existence which we can experience daily as I described in my original post. From where do your thoughts come? When you recognize them, they have already happened. If you try to not have thoughts, they will eventually appear. Since they are the past and you are in the present you are not on the same plane of existence as they are.

"going beyond what is written" can be the correct interpretation of Scripture's allegorical nature. If you use the Physical Reality to explain the Spiritual Reality it must be done by using physical things to explain spiritual things. A physical tree does not exist in the Spiritual Reality, but it can be used to convey the nature of what is spiritual depending on its relationship with the other parts of the allegory--giving us a picture into the nature of the spiritual reality.

Literally, Jesus said we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. We don't do that by nibbling on a cracker and sipping grape juice which only symbolizes that we are doing the reality of his statement--daily. Following the reality of his statement results in our spiritual being becoming more and more who he really is.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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You can't have it both ways. If Man is in GOD's Image and GOD is a Trinity, then Man must also be a trinity. We know we aren't 3 persons in one, but we are one living being existing on 3 planes of existence which we can experience daily as I described in my original post. From where do your thoughts come? When you recognize them, they have already happened. If you try to not have thoughts, they will eventually appear. Since they are the past and you are in the present you are not on the same plane of existence as they are.

"going beyond what is written" can be the correct interpretation of Scripture's allegorical nature. If you use the Physical Reality to explain the Spiritual Reality it must be done by using physical things to explain spiritual things. A physical tree does not exist in the Spiritual Reality, but it can be used to convey the nature of what is spiritual depending on its relationship with the other parts of the allegory--giving us a picture into the nature of the spiritual reality.

Literally, Jesus said we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. We don't do that by nibbling on a cracker and sipping grape juice which only symbolizes that we are doing the reality of his statement--daily. Following the reality of his statement results in our spiritual being becoming more and more who he really is.
Yes, you can have it both ways...God a Trinity and us not...all things are possible with God. We must stop short of explanations where Scripture is silent and not only is it silent on this matter, but names it a profound mystery...we are not privy to an explanation anywhere. Curious as to why you feel the need to solve it when Paul himself does not.
Even in human wisdom/logic however, your statement that God is a Trinity, we are made in His image, therefore we have to also each be a Trinity is false. The MUST or MUST ALSO BE of your sentence is what renders it to be false. For, human situation now, looking at our ancestry DNA and that of our ancestors we find we do not hold all things in common. Some attributes do not pass down to the siblings...that and there are also aberrations and mutations which are unexplained (to the satisfaction of many Christians).
Good thinking, but exercise caution by making certain all of Scripture is satisfied by your deductions before making any pronouncements. In this case you missed...
II John 1:9:
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
and...
I Corinthians 4:6:
...so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”...
and...
Ephesians 5:31-32:
“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Take all passages and cautions into consideration and then take the road of humility and submit to the Word...God will surely bless you abundantly.
 
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Albion

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You cannot, in my view claim that man is a Trinity...
That's correct and I agree--IF we are saying that the nature of Man is equivalent to the nature of God. But when our friend explained what he had in mind ('Man has a heart, soul, and mind plus a body'), it became clear that he was referring to a threesome of something or other, but not anything analogous to the three persons of God.
 
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