I have a question about the Trinity.

TheBibleSays

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It seems it was written later to address beliefs which were not corresponding with the gospel, not that it matters when it was written.

Surely it must matter whether what we have in the Holy Bible, is the Word of God, fully Trustworthy and Inspired and Infallible? Or else we have a collection of books that are the works on fallible humans! Or, partly Divine and partly human, which is quite useless. I have no doubt in my mind, that 1 John 5:7 did form part of the original Autograph of the Apostle John, as is proved beyond any doubt from the internal Greek grammar of the context.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I would prefer "persona".
isn't that moralistic? isn't the point of the Trinity that there is somehow more distinction between the active persons than the word mode or even persona would imply?

hard to comprehend these nuances
 
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Erik Nelson

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Do you believe that the Holy Bible teaches that the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are distinct "Persons", though not separate? The Father is not the same as the Son or Holy Spirit. The Son is not the same as the Father or Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the same as the Father of Son.
yes, just think a few more equivalent terms would be highly helpful here

hypo-stasis in Greek --> sub-stance in Latin --> under-standing in English...

???
 
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The Righterzpen

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OK, after having read through a good chunk of answers. I will give a crack at this.

First off, I do agree that the Trinity is not "totally beyond human ability to grasp". Jesus, also being human - I'm sure "grasped" the Trinity. So I don't think it's totally beyond our intellectual capacity from the standpoint of being created entities.

That being said obviously, as created entities we are never going to have the omniscience of God; yet I do believe we can "know enough' to satisfy our own individual need to know, if sought with humility. Adding to this also, we can not neglect to mention sin as being a hindering factor in our understanding.

So let's jump in here.

Many have already mentioned 1 God in 3 "personas". Which I think is a good start, yet it warrants caution not to assume / turn this into modalism.

The Father is not the Son, not the Spirit. The Father did not die for anyone's sin, neither did the Holy Ghost. Jesus does not "indwell" a believer, neither does the Father. The Father does not appear to directly interact in creation in the same way the Son and Spirit did / do. They had / have different roles to play and do this in concert of the same will, purpose, in unity of each other. This is how they are separate "persons".

Now the "substance" of God. How ever it is you'd want to define or "imagine" what God is "made out of". (Sounds silly, I know.)

The best example I've heard is the one given of water. It's gas, it's liquid, it's ice. Three forms, but of one substance. Water in what ever form it is; is always and never ceases to be 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. So thus "substance" of God in "3 persons".

Now though it's true one H2O molecule can not be solid, liquid and gas all at the same time; that does not negate that H2O molecule is still an H2O molecule.

And in this sense, here is where this analogy breaks down. One H2O molecule can be liquid, then solid then gas; which is not true for the persons of the Godhead. The Father can not become the Son and the Son can not become the Spirit.

Father & Spirit:
Now God the Father and the Holy Ghost are easier to "equate" to each other because they are technically of the same "form" (God is Spirit), but on account of their differences in tasks performed they are still different persons.

Where things tend to confuse us - is the Son.

The Son of His Divine person has always existed; but His humanity had a distinct beginning and due to the fact that He had a "created" aspect that would come into being; accommodation to provide a space for that created aspect, would become a permanent part of God's plan, as well as the world God would "inhabit". (Thus the creation of the new heavens and new earth.)

It's rather remarkable to consider that God would choose to "confine" Himself to a created environment; seeing how His created aspect has become a permeant part of the Son's existence and appears that it will remain so throughout the duration of eternity. This is what makes the Son distinct from the Father and Spirit.

Now the incarnation was essential to overcome evil in God's creation. He was the only entity that could do this because He is eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and immortal. Evil being something only of this world, does not bear those attributes, so this is the major reason God can conquer it; when Adam could not. Yet the only way God could conquer it was to become part of what He'd created.

This baffled "evil" (the personification of thus being embodied in Satan).

Origin of Evil:
Now the best theory I can come up with as to why evil exists is that it is a byproduct of God's creative process. "To every action is an equal and opposite reaction" and the "reaction" to God creating, brought into existence the theoretical opposite of God. Now of course this theoretical opposite does not bear the attributes of God, though it is totally everything God is not.

This seems to me to be the most logical explanation, because we know evil did not preexist creation; since "in the beginning God" (and by implication; God was all there was). Also since there is no "shadow of turning" in God, we know evil was not some cast off of Him and we know He did not create it. So the only most logical answer left, is that it is the byproduct of what God did.

Now "evil" I'd imagine is like Star War's "the force". In Star Wars though, you have a "good side" and a "bad side"; yet the "opposite reaction" to God creating has no good. The good that resides in this universe is of the origin of its Creator.

So the Son containing this aspect of His personhood that was Divine, could conquer evil because Divinity is greater than evil. Yet being uniquely "created" as Jesus making up God/man; His humanity was essential to the completion of this task. This is why Jesus had to be fully human, as well as being fully God.

Creator "hiding" in a fallen world:
Now in order for God to accomplish this, He could not enter this creation in the fullness of His glory without causing its destruction. That is just the reality of the nature of God's holiness, power, presence and immortality. The only outcome of God intervening would have been destruction, unless of course He does so as a created entity!

So now, in order to do so as a created entity; the Son bears characteristics of being a created entity and He does so for the purpose of redeeming what He's created. This is an expression of God's love because He would have never created a universe He knew to be fundamentally unredeemable. There would have been no point to that. God is not only loving; He's practical.

So the son is incarnated in the likeness of Adam, bearing all the attributes of Adam, except sin. Now evil quickly realizes there's something fundamentally different about this created entity. He does not sin and in this certain sense He can not sin, because of this Divine nature. On the other hand though, the human nature is capable of sin and could choose to transgress. Transgression, being antithetical to His nature as a whole entity though, is the reason He doesn't sin.

Jesus though was not an entity that was at war with Himself, and the reason for this is that evil is an "entity" / "force" that is outside of the creation. Our physical substance is not what's evil. "The flesh" is the attribute of us that's corruptible and that corruptibility holds its origin in the spiritual aspect of humanity. We have a soul, spirit and body; yet the only thing we "inherit" from God is the breath of life that makes us living souls. The breath of life does not make us a soul. (We inherit our souls as part of the natural process of conception from our human parents.) The breath of life makes us a living soul.

Jesus inherited a soul, spirit and body from his mother Mary; but He inherited a Divine nature inseparably joined to His human nature from His Father. So Jesus was not a 3 part person, He was actually a 4 part person. Body, soul, spirit, Divine nature.

In similar fashion a believer has the Holy Ghost who's cleaved Himself to the spirit of that person, making them a new creature in Christ. Yet being fundamentally different from Jesus in that they are of their father Adam, means that still inside of them resides the remnants of the fallen nature. This is why believers still sin, yet they do not live a lifestyle of sin because the Holy Ghost being God also (with all of God's attributes); can not deny Himself.

So because the Son was conceived by the Holy Ghost, did this make His Divinity "override" His humanity? Not really because what ever it is that "propagates" our "flesh" that's capable of corruption was not fashioned with that capacity in Jesus. The corruptibility factor is inherited from father to child, not mother to child. So this is how Jesus could be born of a human mother who was a sinner, but not be a sinner Himself. His human nature, being created in similitude to Adam in his innocence, naturally followed the inclinations of the Divine nature out of the love He was so intimately aquatinted with on account of "it" was part of His being.

Jesus's Divine nature was committed to following the Father's will, yet His humanity clearly had a will of its own; which was influenced by the very nature of being a created entity with all the limitations created entities bear. Jesus could not have an advantage over Adam and still be an appropriate sacrifice, so this is why attributes of His Divinity were veiled from even Himself to a degree, by His status as a created entity. Jesus was not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal or immortal in His flesh. He couldn't be without destroying His creation. But because His Divinity was still all those things, is why He maintained dominion over the creation.

Now God's greatest attribute being love, is what drove Jesus to exercise this dominion as a servant and not to the gain of His own human satisfaction. This is how and why He was humble and wise and meek and compassionate. He was God, yet agreed to take on the form of created entity and relinquish to the Father's jurisdiction all that Jesus could have rightfully determined of Himself. He still bore access to omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, eternal(ness) and immortality; but having agreed to be the sacrifice, He literally asked permission to utilize this power. So the fact that His humanity concealed these things, is the reason He pursued the Father's approval so fervently.

Now I don't know if that answers any of your questions, and I suppose there is more I could say; but for the moment. It is late and I can't stay awake any longer. LOL
 
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Neogaia777

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If you believe you have fully understood the mystery the is 'The Trinity' then you haven't.

That is not to say you should not try to fully understand the mystery.
You might, "might" be able to understand at least some of the "nature of those mysteries" maybe...?, Surrounding God, and the like, but, as for "answers to those mysteries"...? That's another story...

It seems every question you do or may answer, seven more all new ones pop up in it's it place sometimes...

But "understanding the nature of those mysteries", is much different than "knowing those mysteries", so to speak...

God Bless!
 
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gordonhooker

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You might, "might" be able to understand at least some of the "nature of those mysteries" maybe...?, Surrounding God, and the like, but, as for "answers to those mysteries"...? That's another story...

It seems every question you do or may answer, seven more all new ones pop up in it's it place sometimes...

But "understanding the nature of those mysteries", is much different than "knowing those mysteries", so to speak...

God Bless!

Exactly
 
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Erik Nelson

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The Trinity is Not A Problem, It's A Solution | Cold Case Christianity

One of the best descriptions of the Triune God of Christianity was offered in the Athanasian Creed of the 4th Century:

“…we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the [3] persons nor dividing the [1] substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal… And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.”
 
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The Righterzpen

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The "Trinity" is seen from start to finish in the scripture. We see God Holy Spirit working from the very start and Even more so, it's testified in the fact that we are made in Gods image and that Bible says that we are made in His image. Who is Him? It is the "us" or "Let us make man in our image. The brain, heart Organ, and physical body are the tangible matter that is the physical representation of the Nature of Gods Triune being. The Brain, Heart Organ, and Physical Body all are distinct in themselves, but are all ONE being. They all three work in tandem to make the living being function within it's physical world. All 3 are separate in functionality and have specific purpose, yet they are in one being, NOT SEPARATE, just as our very own human bodies testify. The Brain is where the cause of functionality for everything in the body works mechanically. It is where the entire body gathers it's information on how and when to function and what to do. This is a physical fingerprints of the Father. The Father is the complete source of the functionality of the Godhead. The Heart Organ is where the Life flow of Blood comes from. Jesus is the Lifeflow and the Blood, right? The Physical Body is the representation of the Holy Spirit. It holds all the components within the vessel to perform it's functions of which a God had set it forth to do. The physically Body is how we actually engage in performing our life task in order to accomplish the will of our lives. Gods Holy Spirit works in the very same way. The HS is the functionality of Gods will being put into action and coming to pass. Now, we look at the intangible representation of The Trinity being the truth of Gods nature in which we are made in the image of, The mind, the Heart, and The Soul(Spirit). The Mind is the source of our knowledge and wisdom, just as The Father, All True Knowledge and wisdom of Life is found in him. The Heart, is where Love, peace, joy, and all other emotional states of being is within us, just as Jesus is the center and exposition of Gods Love, peace, joy, rest, and all other states of being of the Triune Godhead is found. The Soul(Spirit) is the essence of the being of a person, just as the Holy Spirit is the essence of Gods Supernatural being. We are made in his image and this is only 2 count Em, Two of the fingerprints of Gods nature on his Creation. The triune nature of God is not some thing that was conspiratorially placed within a brick and mortar system to deceive people, it's people's lack of thinking and seeking to know the truth of God with all humility that leads to a rejection of The Trinity.

Interesting analogy of the functions of the persons of the Trinity. Doesn't address the unity of nature; but analogies that come to us from our physical world, never give us the full picture; since we "see through a glass dimly" and this creation is a reflection of its Originator.
 
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The Righterzpen

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It is by no means comprehended how God can be a Trinity yet we see it defined in Scripture and we also see God referring to Himself as One. We take God's Word as true and fully trustworthy, an act of faith. Here is a passage spelling out the teaching of the Trinity quite clearly, but this truth can be found by putting together a number of passages as well...
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The Son is of course Jesus (this is a prophesy), Wonderful Counselor (Holy Spirit...He is referred to as Counselor by Jesus in the gospel of John), Mighty God (self explanatory), Everlasting Father (again self explanatory)...goes on to call Jesus the Prince of Peace...this is because He established peace between God and man by conquering sin and the grave and rose again as a sacrifice for our sins.

Yet One God...
Deuteronomy 6:4-5:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Remember that when you do what vs 5 instructs you take Him by faith, you take Him fully at His Word...your act of faith.

I'd done a study once on the phrase in this verse "Everlasting Father" because of the very issue of modalism people confuse.

Jesus and the Father are not the same entity. Of their Divinity, they are the same substance, but not the same person. The Hebrew in that passage implied "elevated to the status of Everlasting Father" and this was not to say that the Divinity of the Son was less than the Divinity of the Father; only that the joining of the Divine nature to a human nature still had to be "tried" in the created world.

Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered, which prepared Him ultimately for the task He would accomplish. As Adam was created with the ability to make choices independent of what God desired, so was Jesus. The difference being of course that Adam did not have a Divine nature as part of his personhood. This is why Adam sinned, because as a created being that was 100% tied to this temporal world, Adam could only be corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Jesus though, being conceived by the Holy Ghost was incorruptible by the knowledge of good and evil. We know Jesus possessed this knowledge as part of His Divine nature and the proof that He was incorruptible was that He didn't sin.

Ephesians 1:21-22 tells us that Jesus obtained His status as reigning King upon being raised from the dead. This is the "elevated to status of the Everlasting Father" He obtained as God/man on account of His own personal obedience as well as following the Father's plan.

Jesus maintained an intense interest in obedience, not just out of His own personal desire for holiness, but for the sake of the glory of the Father (in which following the plan glorified the Father because the Son's willingness to take on the atonement showed forth in the best possible way the love of God).

In following the plan and taking on the atonement, the Father glorified the Son for what He'd accomplished in "giving" the (Him He'd now become as both Divine and created entity), the creation He'd atoned for. This is why Jesus said "glorify me with your own self with the glory I once had with you before the world was." (The Son had that glory prior to being incarnated.) And in verse 1 of John 17 "Father the hour has now come, glorify your son so your son may also glorify you." Glorifying the Father was more important to Jesus than his own personal destruction. And that is evidence of the great love God is by nature.

So, another aspect of the nature of the relationships within the Trinity as they worked to execute this plan they'd conceived of from the foundations of the world.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The first verse of the Holy Bible says, "in the beginning ʼĕlôhîym...". Here we have the Hebrew word "ʼĕlôhîym", which is masculine in gender, and plural in number, GOD. Some have argued that the plural does not refer to "plurality of Persons", but to "majesty", as a king or queen would say, "we". This, however is not the case with "ʼĕlôhîym", when used for the One True God of the Holy Bible. In this same chapter in Genesis, we read, "And ʼĕlôhîym said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness" (verse 26). Again, those opposed to the Holy Trinity, argue that here ʼĕlôhîym is speaking to the angels in heaven, or some other heavenly beings. This is nothing but speculation, because no where in the entire Bible, are we told that human beings are created in the "image" of angels, but we are told, that we are created in the Image of God!

In Ecclesiastes 12:1, we read, "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth". Here the Hebrew word for "Creator", is "bârâʼ", which is plural in number, literally, "Creators"! Likewise, in Job 35:10; and Isaiah 54:5, we have "Your Maker", which again in the Hebrew, "ʻâsâh", is in the plural, "Makers". In Passages like Hebrews 2:10, we read of God the Father as Creator of the universe. Then, in places like Hebrews 1:10:13, we read of God the Father addressing Jesus Christ, and ascribing direct Creation to Him, not as merely the "mediator", as some wrongly assume, but as the actual Creator. In fact, in this passage in Hebrews, the Father is applying Psalm 102:25-27, which is addressed to Yahweh as The Creator, directly to the Lord Jesus Christ, thereby declaring that He is Almighty God. The same Hebrew word, "ʻâsâh", in its singular form, is used for the Holy Spirit in Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made [âsâh] me". Here we have Creation ascribed to God the Holy Spirit.

In Isaiah 48:16, we have the clearest reference in the Old Testament, to the Holy Trinity. Here the Speaker is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, Who Speaks as Yahweh. Here also, those who oppose the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, have sought to remove the Holy Trinity from this passage, by arguing that the speaker here is the Prophet Isaiah, or someone else. However, this is shown to be quite wrong from the passage itself. In verse 12, the Speaker says, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last"; and the following verse, "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.". Which is impossible for any human being! So, here in 48:16, we have Yahweh as the Speaker, Jesus Christ, Who says, "and now the Lord (Yahweh) has sent Me and His Spirit". Here both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the two "objects" in the sentence. Bible versions like the King James, render the Hebrew incorrectly, "and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.", making the Lord God and Holy Spirit as two subjects! The order of words in the Hebrew, Greek and Latin, all read: "and now the Lord (Yahweh) has sent Me and His Spirit". As do the following Jewish publications:

And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit” (The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, A New Translation. The Jewish Publication Society of America. 5677-1917)

“And now, the Lord Eternal hath sent me, and his Spirit” (Isaac Leeser, The Twenty-Four Books of the Holy Scriptures: Carefully Translated According to the Massoretic Text)

“ and now, the Lord God has sent me, and His spirit.” (The Complete Jewish Bible, with Rashi Commentary, chabad.org)

“I have not spoken in secret from beginning from the time that it was, there am I : and now the Lord Eternal hath sent me, and his spirit.” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol. III)

Also in the Dead Sea Scrolls:

“Draw near to me, and hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; at the time it came to be, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit.” (Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich. The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible)

In the New Testament we read of the Father sending Jesus Christ; “and the Father Himself, Who has sent Me” (John 5:37, and elsewhere); and the Holy Spirit, "“But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My Name” (John 14:26, and elsewhere). However, no where do we read of the Holy Spirit "sending" Jesus Christ!

In Matthew 28:19, we have a very clear reference to the Holy Trinity;

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptise them into the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

The Greek here is of great importance. The sentence, "ὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος" (literally, "The Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit), shows, by the use of the definite artice in the Greek, "τοῦ", which is prefixed to each noun (Father, Son, Spirit), shows that They are "distinct" from each other, though not "separate". Here we have Three "Persons", but One Name, where the Greek "ὸ ὄνομα", in in the singular number. The reference to "ὸ ὄνομα" here is no doubt to that which Yahweh gave Moses at the Burning Bush, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD [Yahweh] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is My Name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15). The Name "Yahweh", is the same root meaning of "I am", meaning "the eternal, self-existing". It is this Name, "Yahweh", which the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have as One.

Let no one suppose, that because here we have the "order" of Persons, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that somehow this shows their "importance", or "priority". This is not so. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, the "order" is , "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"; and Ephesians 4:4-6, it is, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Soli Deo Gloria!

It is this Name, "Yahweh", which the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have as One.

:oldthumbsup:

Very informative - Thank you for responding. I learned something here!
 
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The Righterzpen

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The Holy Trinity is not merely One Person playing different "roles", but actually Three distinct, though not, separate, Persons. To say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and mere "roles" of the One same Person, is the ancient hersey known as modalism, which some also hold to today!

The definition of Person is:

“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)

“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within.

Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these.

(William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)

“PERSONALITY. In the first place, we endeavor to establish the personality of the Holy Spirit. By this we here mean that the Holy Spirit is a real being, possessing intelligence, and performing personal actions; not, however, a being distinct and separate in essence from the Father. We understand the one undivided essence or being in the Godhead to exist in three distinct persons—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We would prove the personality of the Holy Ghost, 1. By the appellations; 2. By the actions; 3. By the honors, ascribed to him. If these be such as can only be applicable to a real and personal existence, then the inference will be clear that the Holy Spirit is a real and personal being, and not a mere abstract attribute, energy, or influence.”

(Thomas Ralston - Elements of Divinity, p.40)

This is a good description of "personality" but I'm not sure it's complete?

Although I agree, animals don't have eternal accountability to moral action, nor do they have the capacity to evaluate their actions in the light of Who God is, seeing how they are not created in His image; yet anyone who's been around animals, realizes pretty quickly they are distinct as individuals. Even animals born of the same parents are unique from each other in "personality" (for lack of a better term).

We say, just as with humans, this is partially "genetically coded" to "temperament", "intelligence", "health" and other factors that are outside of the conscious mind of the organism; all organisms (plants included) are unique individuals. We even see this genetically, which is what we attribute in the physical world to the differences they exhibit. Even "clones" (be they man made or natural - i.e. identical twins) are different enough that the difference is identifiable, both in genetics as well as "personality".

Now of course how much "personality" does a tree have. LOL

So, I don't know? Maybe it's worth defining "personhood" from "personality" as the distinction between God and man in one category and animals in the other?
 
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The Righterzpen

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These are my favorite responses. One thing I do know---Yes--God is love, He is not merely "loving"---He IS love, but He is also MATH!!
You can't read the bible without seeing that God and math are one! There is math all over nature, there is math all over music, all over everything--you can't get away from it! And it's difficult for me as I can't stand math! It was always my worst subject, I was OK at the basics, once I got into Algebra and physics---forget it, my mind just was overwhelmed, when I thought I had a correct answer, I found out I didn't. If it weren't for math, I would have graduated with a point 4 average instead of the lousy 3.8---always upset me, just missed the mark! I think mathematicians have a mind closer to how God's mind works!
Best visual description I heard, and could see, was the egg---it is 3 parts-- yolk, white, and shell---all 3 are required for that to be yet they can all work and function separately. May not be a perfect answer, nor the best--it helps me with the concept. I plan to find out the rest in person one day soon!

Math is a systematic methodology that helps us understand how the creation was constructed. Math is certainly genius and shows forth the intelligence of the Creator; but math is not God any more than planet earth is God.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Hi Neostarwcc-
Thanks for the questions. Set aside the word "trinity"; in scripture and history Yahweh has revealed himself as:
  • three distinct divine persons who
  • share the same being (uncreated)
  • share the same nature (essential features- all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect, unchanging, everywhere present, good, etc.)
  • in harmonious, self-giving, other focused relationship (agape) and
  • choosing distinct roles in relating to the created world, especially humanity
The five bolded terms above are the keys to look for in scripture. I believe there is a God-given analogy to understand this reality: humans.

Being- Humans (like everything else apart from God) are created as opposed to Yahweh who is uncreated. All humans share this "created" being. The three divine persons share the uncreated being.

Nature - Billions of humans share the same human nature. A baby is fully human. A fetus is fully human. An amputee is fully human. A down-syndrome person is fully human. Our humanity is not the artistic talents we have, or our eye color. The essential human nature is shared.

Persons- Instead of billions of distinct persons who share the human nature, the divine nature, is shared by only three persons identified to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All persons have MIND, WILL and EMOTIONS because we are patterned on the interpersonal community of Three. Each of the three persons is said to have mind, will and emotions.

Relationship - Since Yahweh is a divine, uncreated community of three persons, Agape is an essential feature of Yahweh, not a secondary attribute (1 John 4:8 - God IS agape). Agape REQUIRES at least two people. You cannot have agape with only one since agape must have an object to receive the action of agape love. But the bible doesn't say God HAS agape or that he acquired the ability once he created 'others', it says he IS love.

Roles
- the distinction between the three persons is most clearly seen in the roles each has taken on. This is seen throughout the Bible, but is highlighted in the New Testament.

For example, the FATHER is never sent and has never been seen. He is the initiator, the sender. HE provides the Father/Child connection we now have.

The SON/WORD is the MEANS of creation and salvation. He always represents the FATHER (John 1:18). In the Old Testament, The Angel of Yahweh stands in for Yahweh on many occasions yet receives worship, blesses people in his own power, doesn't reveal his name, and is identified with Jesus in the New Testament (Jude 1:5).

The SPIRIT is the POWER of God in creation, salvation, sanctification. He reveals the thoughts of God in the Old Testament to prophets and to his people since he was poured out by Jesus. (1 Cor. 2)​

A (very)few passages that demonstrate these concepts:
  • Genesis 1, and John 1 While I don't think that "let us create man in our image" is necessarily a trinitarian passage, the pre-creation' 'setup' in Genesis 1:1-3 definitely is we have God (the Father) intiaiting the creation through God, the Word), and God, the Spirit) hovering over the water - all three involved in the Creation. John picks this up in John 1, echoing the "In the beginning" language from Genesis 1 and explicitly identifying Jesus as "the Word of God" who made all things and was with the Father.

  • John's Gospel (esp. Ch. 6, 10, 16, 17) The rest of John's gospel is devoted to showing Jesus as the "Word who became flesh and dwelt among us…full of grace and truth." Later on Jesus will say he is going back to the Father to the "glory I had with you before the world began (John 17:5) and that he will send the Holy Spirit as a helper, teacher, and enabler with power (John 16). Jesus, always affirming the unity/oneness of God, prays that his church will be one as he and the Father are one: one in purpose, one in spirit, one in faith, but NOT one in person!

    Also, Jesus, and later the apostles, say that the Son has been given all judgement, because the Father wants to glorify the Son, jsut as the Son is glorifying the Father.

  • Acts 2 & 3 Peter has Jesus ("the Author of Life") being sent and approved by the Father. Jesus, now risen in power, pours out the Holy Spirit on "all flesh" according to the prophecy in Joel 2.

  • Epistles: Listen to the parallel language in Ephesians 1:3-14, Titus 3:3-7, Romans 1:1-5, 1 Peter 1:1-10. The Father's love and initiative are constantly "up front". The Son's active role as the Agent of salvation, new creation, new covenant. The Spirits being "poured out"

  • Father, Son and Spirit are all said to have raised Jesus from the dead. (Romans 6:4, John 10:17-18)
  • Father, Son and Spirit are all said to be the source of life (1 John 5:11, Romans 810-11)
I could go on, but I hope this will suffice for now. The Christian life is participation in the divine community of three: the Love OF the the Father (John 3:16), THROUGH the Son (Romans 6:1-11), BY the Holy Spirit's presence in our lives (Ephesians 1:13-14).

I hope that's helpful

This is the most complete yet easiest to understand explanation I've seen yet!

:oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup:
 
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mmksparbud

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Math is a systematic methodology that helps us understand how the creation was constructed. Math is certainly genius and shows forth the intelligence of the Creator; but math is not God any more than planet earth is God.

I didn't say math is God---I said God is math--the same as God is love.
 
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I didn't say math is God---I said God is math--the same as God is love.

Well, I wouldn't say that either. The Scripture doesn't say God is math.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Here are some of the other Hebrew words used in the Old Testament, for the One True God of the Bible. 1. 'el; 2. 'elah; 3. 'eloah; 4. 'elohim; 5. 'el shadday (God Almighty); etc, etc. Then we have the Name of God, as given to Moses in Exodus chapter 3, which in its original form, was the four Hebrew consonants, YHWH, known as the Tetragrammaton. This Name was considered as far to sacred for the Jews to use, so they added vowels to it, thereby giving us "Yahweh". This Majestic Name of Almighty God, has its Hebrew root, in what The Angel of the Lord, Who is the Lord Jesus Christ, in His converestion with Moses in Exodus chapter 3, said, "’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh", which is commonly (and rightly) translated as "I am Who I am". The Greek Old Testament, which was made some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus, by first-rate Hebrew scholars, have translated the Hebrew as, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally is, "I am the Eternal, Self-Existing One". This is exactly what the Name YAHWEH means. In many places in the OT, the Jews replaced Yahweh, with 'Adonay (also, Lord). So, for example, in Psalm 110:1, "The Lord said to my Lord...". The Hebrew has it, "Yahweh said to 'Adonay". Interestingly, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads, "Yahweh said to Yahweh". Two Persons Who are called YAHWEH. In fact, in verse 5 of this Psalm, where we read, "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath", where in later Hebrew manuscripts, "Lord" is 'Adonay. However, the older and better Hebrew manuscripts, it read, "Yahweh". This "Lord" is the same 'Adonay of verse one, Who is clearly known as YAHWEH (the Lord Jesus Christ), which was corrupted by the Jews, to try to remove the Deity of Jesus! In Genesis 19:24, we have a very interesting reading. In Chapter 18, one of the three men who appeared to Abraham, was none other than Yahweh, where the KJV Bible renders it, "LORD". In this verse in chapter 19, both uses of "Lord", then One on earth, Jesus Christ, and the Other in heaven, in the Hebrew, is YAHWEH!

I'd recently been pointed to a linguistic scholar who said something very similar to what you describe here. "Yahweh said to Yahweh"

This was picked up by the rabbis in what they noted was the "duplicity" of the word "God". Not just "elohim" but also when God passed before Moses stating "Yahweh, Yahweh, Yahweh" Yahweh is standing next to Moses point to Yahweh; as opposed to Yahweh passing before Moses declaring Himself as "Yahweh, Yahweh Yahweh". There's another passage of similar flavor. (I think it's Ezekiel?) Either way, very interesting!
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I'd done a study once on the phrase in this verse "Everlasting Father" because of the very issue of modalism people confuse.

Jesus and the Father are not the same entity. Of their Divinity, they are the same substance, but not the same person. The Hebrew in that passage implied "elevated to the status of Everlasting Father" and this was not to say that the Divinity of the Son was less than the Divinity of the Father; only that the joining of the Divine nature to a human nature still had to be "tried" in the created world.

Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered, which prepared Him ultimately for the task He would accomplish. As Adam was created with the ability to make choices independent of what God desired, so was Jesus. The difference being of course that Adam did not have a Divine nature as part of his personhood. This is why Adam sinned, because as a created being that was 100% tied to this temporal world, Adam could only be corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil. Jesus though, being conceived by the Holy Ghost was incorruptible by the knowledge of good and evil. We know Jesus possessed this knowledge as part of His Divine nature and the proof that He was incorruptible was that He didn't sin.

Ephesians 1:21-22 tells us that Jesus obtained His status as reigning King upon being raised from the dead. This is the "elevated to status of the Everlasting Father" He obtained as God/man on account of His own personal obedience as well as following the Father's plan.

Jesus maintained an intense interest in obedience, not just out of His own personal desire for holiness, but for the sake of the glory of the Father (in which following the plan glorified the Father because the Son's willingness to take on the atonement showed forth in the best possible way the love of God).

In following the plan and taking on the atonement, the Father glorified the Son for what He'd accomplished in "giving" the (Him He'd now become as both Divine and created entity), the creation He'd atoned for. This is why Jesus said "glorify me with your own self with the glory I once had with you before the world was." (The Son had that glory prior to being incarnated.) And in verse 1 of John 17 "Father the hour has now come, glorify your son so your son may also glorify you." Glorifying the Father was more important to Jesus than his own personal destruction. And that is evidence of the great love God is by nature.

So, another aspect of the nature of the relationships within the Trinity as they worked to execute this plan they'd conceived of from the foundations of the world.
In reading your first few sentences I see where you come from and in my view how you sort of derail. One does not do a study elsewhere...those thoughts belong to another human as likely to err as you yourself. If you are earnest, prayerful and patiently wait upon the Lord for answers He will guide you to the Truth just as the following passages teach...
I John 2:26-28:
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
John 14:25-26:
“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Doesn't Jesus also say in John 14:17 and 18

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

First, the disciples wouldn't know of any other but Christ... even with all that Jesus is recorded as saying about the Father, they didn't understand or comprehend Him. We have no scriptural evidence that Jesus talked to the disciples about the Holy Spirit. We also see in verse 18 that Jesus clarifies to the disciples why it is that they will know the Spirit... it is Christ's own Spirit that will come to them. At least that's how I read the full passage. Jesus refers to himself in the third person quite often so calling Himself another Comforter would be logical.

So if we have the Holy Spirit treated as Another, distinct from the Father and the Son, and Jesus can still speak of Himself being present through the Holy Spirit, that would suggest what theologians refer to as the Perichoresis of the Trinity.

It's like how Jesus can say "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father", and "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me".

Is Jesus the Father? No, He's not.
Is Jesus the Holy Spirit? No, He's not.
But Jesus is in the Father.
And Jesus is in the Holy Spirit.
Just as the Father is in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is also in Jesus.

The concept of Perichoresis is sometimes described as the interpenetration of the Three Persons, or their coinhering. The Greek word here is kind of interesting as it combines peri (around, think of "perimeter", "around the area") and choreo (to move, to go about, think of "choreography"), with the -esis which makes the word a process noun--the process or state of moving around. It is the living, dynamic, inter-relatedness of the Three Persons in and with one another, as they inhabit, penetrate, exist, live, and act in and through each other. Such that it is impossible to ever speak of one of the Persons without comprehending the others as well. We can not speak of the Father without understanding the Son and the Holy Spirit as well, and likewise we cannot speak of the Son without understanding the Father and the Spirit, etc.

So, indeed, Christ is present through the Holy Spirit, even as the Father is present through Christ. So that when we encounter Christ--the Son--we encounter the Father who is in Him; just as through the Spirit we meet Christ. And so it is always the Holy Spirit who makes Christ present to us through Word and Sacrament, the Spirit who works faith in us, and so the Spirit brings Christ to us, and in Christ we meet the Father, and so forth. Not as a series of emanations, but rather because of the perichoresis of the Hypostases and the inseparation of the Hypostases. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct, but never separate. So in Being and Activity the Three are always One.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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In reading your first few sentences I see where you come from and in my view how you sort of derail. One does not do a study elsewhere...those thoughts belong to another human as likely to err as you yourself. If you are earnest, prayerful and patiently wait upon the Lord for answers He will guide you to the Truth just as the following passages teach...
I John 2:26-28:
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
John 14:25-26:
“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The study did not come from someone else's interpretation. It came from comparing other places the word of phrase is used in the Scripture.

Hebrew words can be combinations of other Hebrew words to convey a meaning. Hebrew is a descriptor language. It describes actions to convey an idea.

For example "angry" is derived from two Hebrew words that literally mean "snorting nostril". Now is it "big snorting nostril" or "little snorting nostril to convey "rage" or "annoyance". Some of that is partially the weight of interoperation the translator gives to the "word picture".

"The everlasting" in "everlasting Father" comes from a prime root meaning "to advance". The remainder of the word conveys "of status old age". So since we know Jesus did not "advance as to the old age of the Father" (Jesus's Divinity is without beginning and without end, just as the Father's is. So thus this must not be literal "advance to the status of old age"; yet means "to advance to status of eternal Father". How and why did He do that?

The answer is in Ephesians 1:21-22; when all dominions and powers and principalities are put under Jesus's Kingship upon rising from the dead. He was not ordinated "King" before that; at least within the confides of time He hadn't yet.

Now in eternity, that's a different story. The atonement took place within the boundaries of time, but also outside of those boundaries within "eternity". This is why and how Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world".

Eternity is capable of interjecting into time, but is not capable of being confined by time; so thus happens both in eternity as well as in time.

The concept of something happening at any point in eternity (which is timeless) is hard for us to grasp because we are so confined to time. We think of time along a linear line. It goes forward or backward but not left or right. In eternity though, there is no direction and anything that will happen in time was already established, (in a sense already having happened) in eternity. Eternity is like unto another dimension where "time" as we understand it, does not exist.

So to get back to the phrase "advance to the old age of Father" That is something that occurred as part of the atonement in time; yet oddly already existed as a reality in eternity.

Don't know if that makes sense to you?
 
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