First Church Orthodox or Catholic?

[ArmyMatt]

Brother ArmyMatt, you are starting to remind me of our Protestants Brothers. The Protestants would quote only half of scripture to justify their "Faith ALONE" doctrine, which is the one below:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

And that's where they stop. They don't bother to look at the next sentence, which is:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is the same argument.

no, it's really not. I am saying that saying God is the Divine substance is wrong. you can surround it with all the correct theology you want, but that doesn't change that you have said something about God that He is not.

as another example, someone (Rome doesn't do this, this is an example) can talk about Christ being one all day, but as soon as they speak of Christ and the Word as being two Persons, he is Nestorian.

it's actually nothing like what Protestants do.

 

[RobNJ]

Brother ArmyMatt,

Fr. Matt!! When did you get tonsured? Does this mean you're on the fast-track to being a Bishop?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fr. Matt!! When did you get tonsured? Does this mean you're on the fast-track to being a Bishop?

haha, no. never.

 

[Erik Nelson]

yes, because the direct definition is "what stands beneath." it was the Cappadocians and Chalcedon that basically hammered out hypostasis=prosopon=person=subsistence, and ousia=nature=essence=substance.

prosopon | Definition of prosopon in English by Oxford Dictionaries

prosopon
noun

Theology. Any one of the three Persons of the Trinity, especially regarded in terms of outward appearance or manifestation.

Origin
Mid 19th century; earliest use found in The Dial. From post-classical Latin prosopon person of the Trinity and its etymon ancient Greek πρόσωπον face, countenance, mask, in Hellenistic Greek also dramatic part, character, person, person of the Trinity, outward form, appearance from πρός to + ὠπ-, stem of ὤψ face, eye.

 

[Erik Nelson]

no, it's really not. I am saying that saying God is the Divine substance is wrong. you can surround it with all the correct theology you want, but that doesn't change that you have said something about God that He is not.

as another example, someone (Rome doesn't do this, this is an example) can talk about Christ being one all day, but as soon as they speak of Christ and the Word as being two Persons, he is Nestorian.

it's actually nothing like what Protestants do.

if prosopon = person = mask = outward appearance...

then is the shared divine essence the inner substance?

vaguely like one actor having three face masks?

 

[ArmyMatt]

prosopon | Definition of prosopon in English by Oxford Dictionaries

prosopon
noun

Theology. Any one of the three Persons of the Trinity, especially regarded in terms of outward appearance or manifestation.

Origin
Mid 19th century; earliest use found in The Dial. From post-classical Latin prosopon person of the Trinity and its etymon ancient Greek πρόσωπον face, countenance, mask, in Hellenistic Greek also dramatic part, character, person, person of the Trinity, outward form, appearance from πρός to + ὠπ-, stem of ὤψ face, eye.

yep, that's why the Cappadocians are so important

 

[ArmyMatt]

if prosopon = person = mask = outward appearance...

then is the shared divine essence the inner substance?

vaguely like one actor having three face masks?

no, one actor having three masks is sabellianism. the essence is why the Trinity is God, fully and eternally and infinitely possessed by the Three Prosopa.

 

[Erik Nelson]

no, one actor having three masks is sabellianism. the essence is why the Trinity is God, fully and eternally and infinitely possessed by the Three Prosopa.

so, prosopon = person...

is more of an independent entity, more of an actor than merely an actor's mask?

 

[ArmyMatt]

so, prosopon = person...

is more of an independent entity, more of an actor than merely an actor's mask?

not independent, but distinct.

 

[Selene03]

no, it's really not. I am saying that saying God is the Divine substance is wrong. you can surround it with all the correct theology you want, but that doesn't change that you have said something about God that He is not.

as another example, someone (Rome doesn't do this, this is an example) can talk about Christ being one all day, but as soon as they speak of Christ and the Word as being two Persons, he is Nestorian.

it's actually nothing like what Protestants do.

Dear Father ArmyMatt,

First, I ask your forgiveness in addressing you improperly as “Brother”. It was brought to my attention that you are a priest. I didn’t realize you were a priest. Because of your username, I automatically assumed that you were a soldier in the Army.

I disagree for I have gotten into so many debates with my Protestant brothers that I can easily see the same argument. In fact, I remember showing our Catechism to a Jehovah Witness, explaining to her that Catholics believe that there are three persons in one God. She read in our Catechism where it says that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. After that she accused the Catholic Church of worshipping three gods. Never mind the fact that the next sentence after that specifically stated that we don’t worship 3 Gods.

She also accused the Protestants of worshipping 3 gods rather than one because they also believe in the Holy Trinity. The Protestants, of course, are Christians, but not the Jehovah Witnesses because they don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, and they don’t believe that Jesus is God. Imagine that....a nonchristian saying that Protestants and Catholics are not Christians because they believe in 3 gods. Shocking! When the discussion turned into 3 gods versus 1 God, dialogue then becomes useless despite what the Catechism explained.

However, considering that she is a Jehovah Witness, it is possible that she found the Holy Trinity difficult to understand since her religion is not familiar with it. Therefore, her ignorance can be excusable....however, the Jehovah Witnesses can claim that they are Christians and accuse Catholics and Protestants of worshipping three gods all they want....because at the end of the day, they really are not Christians.....

There is another thread in CF that I recently started posting in regarding the evils of abortion. I’m glad to see many of my Protestant brothers standing up to this evil. I must admit, however, that the pro-choice atheists have presented some interesting perspective....some of which I have heard before. At any rate, I’m standing together with my Protestant brothers against abortion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Dear Father ArmyMatt,

First, I ask your forgiveness in addressing you improperly as “Brother”. It was brought to my attention that you are a priest. I didn’t realize you were a priest. Because of your username, I automatically assumed that you were a soldier in the Army.

I disagree for I have gotten into so many debates with my Protestant brothers that I can easily see the same argument. In fact, I remember showing our Catechism to a Jehovah Witness, explaining to her that Catholics believe that there are three persons in one God. She read in our Catechism where it says that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. After that she accused the Catholic Church of worshipping three gods. Never mind the fact that the next sentence after that specifically stated that we don’t worship 3 Gods.

She also accused the Protestants of worshipping 3 gods rather than one because they also believe in the Holy Trinity. The Protestants, of course, are Christians, but not the Jehovah Witnesses because they don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, and they don’t believe that Jesus is God. Imagine that....a nonchristian saying that Protestants and Catholics are not Christians because they believe in 3 gods. Shocking! When the discussion turned into 3 gods versus 1 God, dialogue then becomes useless despite what the Catechism explained.

However, considering that she is a Jehovah Witness, it is possible that she found the Holy Trinity difficult to understand since her religion is not familiar with it. Therefore, her ignorance can be excusable....however, the Jehovah Witnesses can claim that they are Christians and accuse Catholics and Protestants of worshipping three gods all they want....because at the end of the day, they really are not Christians.....

There is another thread in CF that I recently started posting in regarding the evils of abortion. I’m glad to see many of my Protestant brothers standing up to this evil. I must admit, however, that the pro-choice atheists have presented some interesting perspective....some of which I have heard before. At any rate, I’m standing together with my Protestant brothers against abortion.

it's no big deal for not calling me Father, I don't broadcast it.

the issue is that God's singularity is because of the single Father, not because God is a single essence. God HAS a single essence, but He Himself IS NOT the single essence.

affirming Three Persons is great and true, but also affirming God is the Divine essence is wrong.

 

[Erik Nelson]

not independent, but distinct.

alright, excellent use of language

distinguish | Origin and meaning of distinguish by Online Etymology Dictionary

dis-stinguere 'to push apart [thence] distinguish, mark off ....'

the BREATH (HS) of God is pushed apart from the Father by Procession

the WORD of God is pushed apart from the Father by Generation

???

 

[Erik Nelson]

no, it's really not. I am saying that saying God is the Divine substance is wrong. you can surround it with all the correct theology you want, but that doesn't change that you have said something about God that He is not.

as another example, someone (Rome doesn't do this, this is an example) can talk about Christ being one all day, but as soon as they speak of Christ and the Word as being two Persons, he is Nestorian.

it's actually nothing like what Protestants do.

so, you would say that God the Father is one Divine subsistence?

 

[prodromos]

the BREATH (HS) of God is pushed apart from the Father by Procession

the WORD of God is pushed apart from the Father by Generation

???

Please stop

 

[Erik Nelson]

Please stop

how are the persons, substances of the Godhead distinguished?

that is an important question whose usual lack of cogent answer causes many to stumble and reject Christianity, in practice

the language @ArmyMatt chose to use suggests to me that there is an active / "actional" sense to the distinguishing...

the HS proceeds from...
the Word is generated from...

i want to understand the Orthodox comprehension

 

[Erik Nelson]

The Trinity is Not A Problem, It's A Solution | Cold Case Christianity

One of the best descriptions of the Triune God of Christianity was offered in the Athanasian Creed of the 4th Century:

“…we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal… And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.”

 

[ArmyMatt]

alright, excellent use of language

distinguish | Origin and meaning of distinguish by Online Etymology Dictionary

dis-stinguere 'to push apart [thence] distinguish, mark off ....'

the BREATH (HS) of God is pushed apart from the Father by Procession

the WORD of God is pushed apart from the Father by Generation

???

no, we wouldn't say pushed apart. we don't know the distinction between the unbegottenness of the Father, the begottenness of the Son, or the procession of the Spirit. we can only affirm that there is a distinction.

 

[ArmyMatt]

so, you would say that God the Father is one Divine subsistence?

yes, each Person of the Trinity is a Divine Subsistence (6th Ecumenical Council).

 

[ArmyMatt]

how are the persons, substances of the Godhead distinguished?

that is an important question whose usual lack of cogent answer causes many to stumble and reject Christianity, in practice

the language @ArmyMatt chose to use suggests to me that there is an active / "actional" sense to the distinguishing...

the HS proceeds from...
the Word is generated from...

i want to understand the Orthodox comprehension

this is not something man can comprehend. we are actually warned by one of the Cappadocians (St Gregory or Basil, I can't remember which) that we will go mad if we try because what makes the Persons distinguished is known only to the Three Persons. it is something that is forever outside man's comprehension.

 

[prodromos]

this is not something man can comprehend. we are actually warned by one of the Cappadocians (St Gregory or Basil, I can't remember which) that we will go mad if we try because what makes the Persons distinguished is known only to the Three Persons. it is something that is forever outside man's comprehension.

St Gregory Nazianzus.

Do you tell me what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will explain to you the physiology of the generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit and we shall both be driven mad for prying into the mystery of God.​