Israel, Abraham, and Modern Times

[mkgal1]

I may be posting this a bit prematurely, as I've not completely researched this - but since it's freshly on my mind, I wanted to at least get this conversation going.

In another thread, there's been a lot of discussion (confusion) as to the OT Israelites and how that pertains to us today.

To me....the way it's pertinent to us today has nothing to do with the place on the map that's labeled "Israel" - it has everything to do with how God fulfilled His promises in bringing forth Christ Jesus and had His hand in the birth of the early church.

A while ago, @jgr had posted that in Genesis 17:12 we see that God's covenant was with those of spiritual DNA - not biological.

Genesis 17:12 ~ Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised. This includes a slave born in your house and one purchased with money from any foreigner. The one who is not your offspring,​

That got me delving into family trees like this one:

.....and right from the beginning, I see honor being brought to people like Zilpah and Bilah (Leah's and Rachel's servants) - as their four sons were counted as some of the 12 tribes.

This image represents the 12 Tribes of Israel - but does this "Israel" have anything to do with modern "Israel"?

 

[mkgal1]

And then there's this passage (which demonstrates that it's by faith that people are added to the Israelites and are included in the covenant):


Isaiah 56 ~

Salvation for Foreigners

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”

 

[joinfree]

This image represents the 12 Tribes of Israel - but does this "Israel" have anything to do with modern "Israel"?

The Genetics researches the DNA tree. Are there results?

 

[Jonaitis]

We are added to the covenant, not to the race, of the Israelite people.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

I am not an 'end-times' person but my gut feel is that the miracle of the 1948 event was significant spiritually and a fulfilment of prophesies related to a future ingathering.

It is important to note that

"...they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel...Rom 9:6

so we need to keep a clear understanding of when each Israel is referred to.

Romans 9-11 is essential reading.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[claninja]

I may be posting this a bit prematurely, as I've not completely researched this - but since it's freshly on my mind, I wanted to at least get this conversation going.

In another thread, there's been a lot of discussion (confusion) as to the OT Israelites and how that pertains to us today.

To me....the way it's pertinent to us today has nothing to do with the place on the map that's labeled "Israel" - it has everything to do with how God fulfilled His promises in bringing forth Christ Jesus and had His hand in the birth of the early church.

A while ago, @jgr had posted that in Genesis 17:12 we see that God's covenant was with those of spiritual DNA - not biological.

Genesis 17:12 ~ Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised. This includes a slave born in your house and one purchased with money from any foreigner. The one who is not your offspring,​

That got me delving into family trees like this one:

.....and right from the beginning, I see honor being brought to people like Zilpah and Bilah (Leah's and Rachel's servants) - as their four sons were counted as some of the 12 tribes.

This image represents the 12 Tribes of Israel - but does this "Israel" have anything to do with modern "Israel"?

Salmon (tribe of Judah) and Rahab(Canaanite) had Boaz

Boaz (mixed half tribe of Judah, half Canaanite) and Ruth (Moabite) had Obed

Obed (half Moabite, quarter Canaanite, and quarter Jewish ) fathered Jesse

and Jesse fathered david.

Right here, we can see that while Obed could trace his lineage through Judah, he was barely of the DNA of Israel.

Matthew 1:5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth,

Both Rahab and Ruth, who were not born Israelites, had faith and were thus included into Israel and the promises of God, as God used their lineage to bring forth the Messiah.

Rahab is even listed with the heroes of faith, who did not receive what was promised, because God, through Christ, had planned something better for her (them and us).

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

 

[mkgal1]

Salmon (tribe of Judah) and Rahab(Canaanite) had Boaz

Boaz (mixed half tribe of Judah, half Canaanite) and Ruth (Moabite) had Obed

Obed (half Moabite, quarter Canaanite, and quarter Jewish ) fathered Jesse

and Jesse fathered david.

Right here, we can see that while Obed could trace his lineage through Judah, he was barely of the DNA of Israel.

Thank you! I was looking for this lineage the other day and couldn't find it (and certainly didn't have it memorized).

And, yes, this is a perfect example of how it's not about DNA - but there was, at the time, a "pure line of Judah" that seems to have been kept completely separate from the line of Levi (the priests).

 

[mkgal1]

Both Rahab and Ruth, who were not born Israelites, had faith and were thus included into Israel and the promises of God, as God used their lineage to bring forth the Messiah.

Rahab is even listed with the heroes of faith, who did not receive what was promised, because God, through Christ, had planned something better for her (them and us).

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Two of my favorites that were included in Jesus' family by grace and their faith (and His divine plan).

 

[BABerean2]

I am not an 'end-times' person but my gut feel is that the miracle of the 1948 event was significant spiritually and a fulfilment of prophesies related to a future ingathering.

How many times does Lord Rothschild give the credit to God in the presentation below?

.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God is able to use whatever means to achieve His purpose.

Repeatedly in OT times He used the actions of pagan nations to support a righteous cause - example Nehemiah.

Secular Jewish support for the State of Israel is only one factor in its birth and survival.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[BABerean2]

God is able to use whatever means to achieve His purpose.

Repeatedly in OT times He used the actions of pagan nations to support a righteous cause - example Nehemiah.

Secular Jewish support for the State of Israel is only one factor in its birth and survival.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

.

Yes good scriptures...

Personally I cant understand how believers justify supporting the building of a third temple.

I have no calling to speak on end times - I just observe the circus.

Is the present Israel a counterfeit? Time will tell...

Should we have a heart for the Jews?

Yes.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[mkgal1]

This is the narrative that finally made sense in my mind to understanding the "days of the end" (before then, there was just too much confusion related to "end times" teaching I'd heard).

Quoting Christ, Israel, and the Fall of Jerusalem by Vladimir Moss :


Christ by no means rejected all of these apocalyptic ideas. After all, several of them were grounded in the God-inspired Scriptures. But He rejected their cruelty, their national ambition, and their anti-Gentilism.

He was Himself both the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, and the Messiah, the Son of David. But He came as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, not the ferocious war-lord of the apocalypses. And He came to restore Israel, not as a State ruling over all the nations by the power of the sword, but as the kernel of the Universal Church ruling by the power of the Spirit. His Kingdom was not of this world; it was the inner Kingdom of Grace. ~ CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM​

 

[mkgal1]

Should we have a heart for the Jews?

Of course. We are to love everyone as a creation of God.

 

[Guojing]

Both Rahab and Ruth, who were not born Israelites, had faith and were thus included into Israel and the promises of God, as God used their lineage to bring forth the Messiah.

Rahab is even listed with the heroes of faith, who did not receive what was promised, because God, through Christ, had planned something better for her (them and us).

In time past, gentiles could be blessed and included in the covenant, but they had to go thru the Jews in order to be so. (Genesis 12:3)

Rahab helped Israel by hiding their spies, and later married one of Joshua's captains.

Ruth was an interesting story I have to admit. In Deut 23, God made a very insightful point

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

5 Nevertheless the Lord thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.

6 Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

Because Moab refuse to help Israel during the 40 years of wandering, and instead hired Balaam to curse them, God judged them in vs3.

Ruth was a Moabite and thus under that judgement. But as God ordained, she married Boaz, who redeemed her as a kinsman redeemer.

So Ruth was included in the covenant, even though she was a gentile, because of the rise of Israel. She had to go thru a Jew in order to be included.

But now, we are blessed and included thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11), that is the mystery that was hidden in God until it was revealed thru Paul (Ephesians 3:9)

 

[keras]

So Ruth was included in the covenant, even though she was a gentile, because of the rise of Israel. She had to go thru a Jew in order to be included.

Right, and since Jesus came; He is the 'Jew', the Israel who we must go thru to obtain Salvation.
Your belief that those who call themselves Jews have any special favor with God, is totally unfounded.

“Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you…,” so the old children’s song goes. Although it’s a silly song that requires the raising of arms, legs, and the nodding of heads, the song’s theology is unquestionably biblical.

In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all. Galatians 3:26-29

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people. Romans 2:28–29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14


Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God. Romans 9:23-26

 

[Guojing]

Right, and since Jesus came; He is the 'Jew', the Israel who we must go thru to obtain Salvation.
Your belief that those who call themselves Jews have any special favor with God, is totally unfounded.

“Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you…,” so the old children’s song goes. Although it’s a silly song that requires the raising of arms, legs, and the nodding of heads, the song’s theology is unquestionably biblical.

In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all. Galatians 3:26-29

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people. Romans 2:28–29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14


Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God. Romans 9:23-26

As I stated, Ruth and rahab in the ot had to go thru the nation Israel to be saved

You are not disagreeing with that point right?

 

[jgr]

As I stated, Ruth and rahab in the ot had to go thru the nation Israel to be saved

You are not disagreeing with that point right?

Israel included Gentiles long before Ruth and Rahab.

So Ruth and Rahab were "going through" Israel's Gentiles as well.

Ruth and Rahab were "going through" all of the faithful obedient believing covenant-keepers, both Gentile and Jew, of Israel.

God was and is not a racist.

 

[Guojing]

Israel included Gentiles long before Ruth and Rahab.

So Ruth and Rahab were "going through" Israel's Gentiles as well.

Ruth and Rahab were "going through" all of the faithful obedient believing covenant-keepers, both Gentile and Jew, of Israel.

God was and is not a racist.

I Guess So Long as you agree it was thru the nation Israel in time past, that is sufficient

 

[jgr]

I Guess So Long as you agree it was thru the nation Israel in time past, that is sufficient

You missed the "who" in Israel, so here it is again:

Ruth and Rahab were "going through" all of the faithful obedient believing covenant-keepers, both Gentile and Jew, of Israel.

Then there were the Gentile Ninevites.

They didn't go through Israel.

Rather, Jonah, of Israel, went through them.