I have a question about the Trinity.

Neostarwcc

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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct? But how can that be? Isn't the worship of one God in three distinct persons worshipping three different Gods? Where in scripture has it been said that the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.
 

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Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.

Probably not. The reality is that scripture points to the Trinity, and there are many passages that imply it...but it is not explicit and any attempt to really understand it falls short into one heresy or another. Truly comprehending it is beyond our abilities and beyond our language.

This is not a great answer, and it does not really help your search, but I think that most Christians that try to understand the theology have the same question - in the end it is a mystery.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Probably not. The reality is that scripture points to the Trinity, and there are many passages that imply it...but it is not explicit and any attempt to really understand it falls short into one heresy or another. Truly comprehending it is beyond our abilities and beyond our language.

This is not a great answer, and it does not really help your search, but I think that most Christians that try to understand the theology have the same question - in the end it is a mystery.

A semi fun fact. I used to not believe in the Trinity when I first became a Christian. For about 2 or 3 years. Than God just placed the belief in my heart. I mean I literally just woke up one day believing it without question. I remember asking the Father if the Trinity was truth to reveal it to me and he did so it must be truth.

You're right that the bible hints and even explicitly states in Christ's divinity and Jesus said multiple times that his Father was God too. That only leaves the Holy Spirit but I can buy that he is God too. I just don't understand how we can not possibly be worshipping three separate God's. Because if Jesus was God in the Flesh and if God the Father is God and if the holy spirit is God than that makes three Gods. Even if people say that God is one with himself. Hmm... Oh well.
 
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Albion

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I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.
The part I bolded in red there is the key to understanding the 3 in 1 concept of the Trinity. The word person to us generally means an individual being, but the word is actually persona, which is closer to an aspect of some being or how a being is perceived.

It is possible to go too far with that point and fall into some other misunderstanding, such as thinking that God is just a shape-shifter or did different jobs, but this point about the persona of God hopefully will give you the basic idea.
 
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Neostarwcc

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The part I bolded in red there is the key to understanding the 3 in 1 concept of the Trinity. The word person to us generally means an individual being, but the word is actually persona, which is closer to an aspect of some being or how a being is perceived. It is possible to go too far with that point and fall into some other misunderstanding, such as thinking that God is just a shape-shifter, but this point about the persona of God hopefully will you the basic idea.

So the Father the Son and The Holy Spirit are all names of the same one God because God is one with himself? Like say for example the Holy Spirit is a part of the Son just as much as The Holy Spirit is a part of the Father and so on? Yet God continues to be one God despite being in three different forms? I think that kinda makes sense. It makes as much sense as its probably going to anyway. I was just wondering because throughout the Old Testament God identifies himself as one and through the new testament all of a sudden three persons of God are introduced.
 
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A semi fun fact. I used to not believe in the Trinity when I first became a Christian. For about 2 or 3 years. Than God just placed the belief in my heart. I mean I literally just woke up one day believing it without question. I remember asking the Father if the Trinity was truth to reveal it to me and he did so it must be truth.

You're right that the bible hints and even explicitly states in Christ's divinity and Jesus said multiple times that his Father was God too. That only leaves the Holy Spirit but I can buy that he is God too. I just don't understand how we can not possibly be worshipping three separate God's. Because if Jesus was God in the Flesh and if God the Father is God and if the holy spirit is God than that makes three Gods. Even if people say that God is one with himself. Hmm... Oh well.

Probably the most simple and best explanation I have ever heard is Philo of Alexandria's divine triad. Philo had it that the ark of the covenant was something of an image of God, with God the Father on the mercy seat and the two cherubim representing His two powers. One power is His Word, by which all things were created and are held together. The second being His regal Power, by which He rules and reigns.

To the "uninitiated mind" God appears at first to be three, but to the initiated mind He is One.

Those three we describe as persons, in that each has being, and also agency, though the Three act as One. The supreme court has nine justices, but is one court. Being human the justices cannot act with one perfect will, but issue decisions as one court. The Trinity is three distinct Persons, but are, and act, as One.
 
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Albion

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So the Father the Son and The Holy Spirit are all names of the same one God because God is one with himself?

No. That would be like saying one person uses different names or we call him by different names and that is all there is to it. Any of us could do the same thing and some of us actually do.

Like say for example the Holy Spirit is a part of the Son just as much as The Holy Spirit is a part of the Father and so on? Yet God continues to be one God despite being in three different forms? I think that kinda makes sense.

That's closer, but it is not simply a matter of putting on a different guise for different occasions.

It makes as much sense as its probably going to anyway. I was just wondering because throughout the Old Testament God identifies himself as one and through the new testament all of a sudden three persons of God are introduced.

Absolutely. The Bible clearly says that God is One, but also refers to all three of these as that God and uses personal pronouns for them, so we are not just talking about different characteristics or attributes of God.
 
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com7fy8

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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct?
Yes . . . God is our Heavenly Father, and His own Son so beloved and pleasing to Him, and the Holy Spirit.

And with this, we have "God is love" > in 1 John 4:8&16. So, our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Persons of one "love". So, in talking about God, we are talking about love which is the Supreme Being . . . not only an emotion or feeling or drive or philosophical way of relating with people.

Maybe we could say it is like how in a loving family there are different persons of the family love > Daddy, Mommy, children > three basic persons. Of course, this is not a complete analogy. But humanity is made up of more than one person, with human substance in different personal forms . . . many different unique individuals, but all of the same basic substances material and spiritual, in the case of humans.

So, sort of like this > God is one Supreme Being in the personal forms of our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. A major difference, though, is how God, being "love", has perfect unity and agreement among all His three Persons. This is what humans really have an issue getting, since we each can be so isolated in our own sin and selfishness and egos, even within in our own families and closest friendships.

What we really need to get, then, is how we can have unity by being in God's love and how He can be our love union and the foundation of our unity of activity with one another.

So, God is not only theoretical, but our example.

"Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:1-2)

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

So, the real issue is will we submit to Him, and how do we? I will offer that this is what God gets us to do, and this can not, really, be explained, since God's ways are "past finding out." (in Romans 11:33) So, I would encourage you, that while we share about this subject of the Trinity, you do well to offer yourself to God, for how He is able to bring us more and more into sweet and tender sharing with Him and one another as His Family >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

Submitting to God and discovering how His grace changes us to love like this is what will satisfy you. So, we can enjoy discovering the subject, but this is what we need to do about it.

So . . . God bless you, too :)
 
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Albion

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Those three we describe as persons, in that each has being, and also agency, though the Three act as One. The supreme court has nine justices, but is one court. Being human the justices cannot act with one perfect will, but issue decisions as one court. The Trinity is three distinct Persons, but are, and act, as One.
The problem with that approach is that it makes God seem to be a committee composed of separate beings. The word God, therefore, becomes like any other collective term--army, or family, for example.

St. Patricks explanation is better--that God is more like a shamrock which is one plant but obviously composed of three leaves or whatever and that it cannot be a shamrock except that it has that form or nature.
 
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Neostarwcc

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No. That would be like saying one person uses different names or we call him by different names and that is all there is to it. Any of us could do the same thing and some of us actually do.



That's closer, but it is not simply a matter of putting on a different guise for different occasions.



Absolutely. The Bible clearly says that God is One, but also refers to all three of these as that God and uses personal pronouns for them, so we are not just talking about different characteristics or attributes of God.

I haven't read the entirety of the Old Testament but I could have sworn I read somewhere in the OT where God called his Spirit (The Holy Spirit) a part of him and fully God now that I think of it. So God has always identified himself as at least one God in Two persons from the beginning of time. Because God did talk about his spirit a lot and David did say in Psalms "Please don't take your Holy Spirit from me.) so yeah a lot of the stuff "introduced" in the NT is in the OT as well.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Yes . . . God is our Heavenly Father, and His own Son so beloved and pleasing to Him, and the Holy Spirit.

And with this, we have "God is love" > in 1 John 4:8&16. So, our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Persons of one "love". So, in talking about God, we are talking about love which is the Supreme Being . . . not only an emotion or feeling or drive or philosophical way of relating with people.

Maybe we could say it is like how in a loving family there are different persons of the family love > Daddy, Mommy, children > three basic persons. Of course, this is not a complete analogy. But humanity is made up of more than one person, with human substance in different personal forms . . . many different unique individuals, but all of the same basic substances material and spiritual, in the case of humans.

So, sort of like this > God is one Supreme Being in the personal forms of our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. A major difference, though, is how God, being "love", has perfect unity and agreement among all His three Persons. This is what humans really have an issue getting, since we each can be so isolated in our own sin and selfishness and egos, even within in our own families and closest friendships.

What we really need to get, then, is how we can have unity by being in God's love and how He can be our love union and the foundation of our unity of activity with one another.

So, God is not only theoretical, but our example.

"Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:1-2)

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

So, the real issue is will we submit to Him, and how do we? I will offer that this is what God gets us to do, and this can not, really, be explained, since God's ways are "past finding out." (in Romans 11:33) So, I would encourage you, that while we share about this subject of the Trinity, you do well to offer yourself to God, for how He is able to bring us more and more into sweet and tender sharing with Him and one another as His Family >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

Submitting to God and discovering how His grace changes us to love like this is what will satisfy you. So, we can enjoy discovering the subject, but this is what we need to do about it.

So . . . God bless you, too :)

What you said makes a lot of sense.
 
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com7fy8

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Philo had it that the ark of the covenant was something of an image of God, with God the Father on the mercy seat and the two cherubim representing His two powers. One power is His Word, by which all things were created and are held together. The second being His regal Power, by which He rules and reigns.
They do work as one, yes. But . . . technically . . . even though They can be called powers . . . like how certain humans are called the "powers that be" . . . still they are personal Beings > Persons . . . like how humans who are powers also are persons.

And one example I will offer, from scripture, to show that the Holy Spirit is a Person of God, is Romans 5:5 >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, right "in our hearts" the Holy Spirit is sharing God's own love with whoever we are who are God's children. This is the Spirit of Heaven's own love with Heaven's quality of pleasantness and rest and beauty and glory . . . yet so humble > and gentle and quiet >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, yes the Holy Spirit is God who is "love". I will offer > no being can be the Spirit of God's own love, unless that Being is God. So, this could be a simple way of confirming how the Holy Spirit is God . . . but as one Person of God . . . since the Holy Spirit is personal, and as a Person communicates in intercession, among other things > Romans 8:26 < intercession is inter-Personal, I offer.

And, while we are at it, we might consider how this love is gentle and quiet > humble. God is quiet, not silent. So, we grow in sharing with Him, by being gentle and quiet with Him . . . in His all-loving family caring and sharing love. This love has Heaven's own glory and beauty which is "incorruptible" (in 1 Peter 3:4) because this is love with almighty power, since God is almighty. So, this love makes us safe > so sound and secure, while also we sample how Heaven is, now . . . more and more as we grow in this love. And yet this love > so Heavenly in glory of joy > is so humble > > >

Jesus was in Heaven so superior; yet, Jesus cared about us and so He left Heaven itself in order to reach us and save us and bless us. So, God's love is so superior, yet all-loving > so not at all conceited ! ! ! A real problem ones have with the Trinity, then, is how we can have our conceited ways of picking and choosing whom we will love, who is good enough for us, who is worth suffering for . . . who we can use. But the Trinity is not like how we can be selfishly loving. The Trinity is our example, then, to be discovered in God's love, better than we can explain. His ways "past finding out" (in Romans 11:33) can not be explained, but we can live in His ways in sharing with Him, in His love, and while we are submitting to how He personally rules us in His own peace > Colossians 3:15.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)
 
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com7fy8

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I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this?
This is a scripture that I use to confirm the Trinity!! :) lololololol Yet, ones can use this same scripture to question the Trinity.

So > I will offer >

Oh - - and by the way, I am not the only one who uses this scripture for teaching the Trinity.

It says let "us" make humans in "our" image. So, this can mean there are more than one Person. The Father and Son and Holy Spirit can be communicating with Themselves.

Of course, ones might say "us" could mean God and His angels. I can't disprove this possible meaning, nor the possibility that God means the Trinity and His angels who could have been included somehow, at least as observers.

But I do notice how humanity is of the same one basic stuff we are made of. And there are many different persons of this basic human stuff. So, yes one substance can have more than one person. And God is love, with three Persons of love.

And, made in the image of God, man is a family being. And God is Family > Father and Son and Holy Spirit. God is the Supreme Being of Family caring and sharing "love" (in 1 John 4:8&16), then, I consider.

And so, He is not just a theoretical subject, but to be discovered in living His love, in sharing with Him, for any and all people. Or else, we are not in personal and tender love, and so we miss out on how we could have truly personal loving. We can tend to pick and choose whom we wish to use, then get in love with them; but this kind of loving is weak so we can be weak enough to deeply suffer, and this selfish love is not personal, not truly intimate; and so we can be lonely in it.

But with Jesus in His all-caring love, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart"; "lowly in heart" means humble. And Jesus is our definition of what humble really means. Jesus is so superior, yet not at all conceited, but loving and caring for any and all humans . . . so kindly and generously and humbly, that Jesus left Heaven itself and suffered and died for us on the cross, for our sins.

So, this can help to show how God is so humble. Jesus is indeed a Person of "love".

And Jesus is so pleasing to our Heavenly Father, God our Father, that Jesus was "a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2) while Jesus was on the cross. Jesus on the cross was pleasing to God, enough so God is satisfied to forgive any and all sins ever committed by humans >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

I will offer that only a Person of God Himself could be pleasing enough to make God satisfied to forgive any and all sins ever. So, yes - - - no matter who we are, God does want us. And Jesus has proven this, on the cross. And because God is love, He wants to share all His own good with us, by means of His Holy Spirit in us sharing His own love with us.

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

So, yes God even wants us to become lovingly forgiving > "even as God". Jesus growing in us shares this with us, more and more > Galatians 4:19.

Because God is "love". Genuine love is not conceited, about being superior to anyone; but love wants us to share all with Him, including being able to forgive "even as God".

So, the glory is to You, O God; thank You ! ! !
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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3∞ = ∞

The trinity is only possible if God is infinite in nature. Multiples of infinity always equal one infinity. That means that to say that there are three means exactly the same as saying that there is one.

From a finite human perspective what it means is that the three persons have finite differences. The father and son are as different from each other as I am from my own father, because I am a finite being and all of our differences are finite. From God's infinite perspective, the finite differences amount to literally nothing. They aren't even small. They're smaller than small, to the point of effectively being nonexistent. The three persons have infinity in common, which means that there is only one of them, if you look at it from the other side (which is rather hard for a finite being to do).

All analogies about the Trinity are bad, because they use finite concepts to explain infinity, but I would venture to explain it as an iceberg with three points showing above the water. We see three icebergs, but there is really only one iceberg. We define the individuals in terms of how we interact with them, and we understand them according to their differences from each other, but all three are really the same iceberg in that vast mass that we do not see. In this case, the underwater portion goes on forever in all directions, and if it were possible to stand back far enough to see the whole thing at once, then the three emerging points would diminish to nonexistence.
 
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This is a scripture that I use to confirm the Trinity!! :) lololololol Yet, ones can use this same scripture to question the Trinity.

So > I will offer >

Oh - - and by the way, I am not the only one who uses this scripture for teaching the Trinity.

It says let "us" make humans in "our" image. So, this can mean there are more than one Person. The Father and Son and Holy Spirit can be communicating with Themselves.

Of course, ones might say "us" could mean God and His angels. I can't disprove this possible meaning, nor the possibility that God means the Trinity and His angels who could have been included somehow, at least as observers.

But I do notice how humanity is of the same one basic stuff we are made of. And there are many different persons of this basic human stuff. So, yes one substance can have more than one person. And God is love, with three Persons of love.

And, made in the image of God, man is a family being. And God is Family > Father and Son and Holy Spirit. God is the Supreme Being of Family caring and sharing "love" (in 1 John 4:8&16), then, I consider.

And so, He is not just a theoretical subject, but to be discovered in living His love, in sharing with Him, for any and all people. Or else, we are not in personal and tender love, and so we miss out on how we could have truly personal loving. We can tend to pick and choose whom we wish to use, then get in love with them; but this kind of loving is weak so we can be weak enough to deeply suffer, and this selfish love is not personal, not truly intimate; and so we can be lonely in it.

But with Jesus in His all-caring love, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart"; "lowly in heart" means humble. And Jesus is our definition of what humble really means. Jesus is so superior, yet not at all conceited, but loving and caring for any and all humans . . . so kindly and generously and humbly, that Jesus left Heaven itself and suffered and died for us on the cross, for our sins.

So, this can help to show how God is so humble. Jesus is indeed a Person of "love".

And Jesus is so pleasing to our Heavenly Father, God our Father, that Jesus was "a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2) while Jesus was on the cross. Jesus on the cross was pleasing to God, enough so God is satisfied to forgive any and all sins ever committed by humans >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

I will offer that only a Person of God Himself could be pleasing enough to make God satisfied to forgive any and all sins ever. So, yes - - - no matter who we are, God does want us. And Jesus has proven this, on the cross. And because God is love, He wants to share all His own good with us, by means of His Holy Spirit in us sharing His own love with us.

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

So, yes God even wants us to become lovingly forgiving > "even as God". Jesus growing in us shares this with us, more and more > Galatians 4:19.

Because God is "love". Genuine love is not conceited, about being superior to anyone; but love wants us to share all with Him, including being able to forgive "even as God".

So, the glory is to You, O God; thank You ! ! !

I highly doubt that God's angels have the ability to create humans. I mean its possible that angels look like us but I highly doubt that his angels have the ability to create humans. Only God can create humans so God was either talking to his triune nature or as the Jews explain this verse he was talking to himself. I honestly don't 100% know the Jewish opinion on this verse. It apparently reads the same in Hebrew as the English translators translated it so imo its just one of many evidences in the OT for Jesus and the Trinity.
 
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com7fy8

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I mean its possible that angels look like us but I highly doubt that his angels have the ability to create humans.
Of course. What I mean is maybe God was including them as onlookers. We do things with God, but what God does is what really is getting done.
 
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eleos1954

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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct? But how can that be? Isn't the worship of one God in three distinct persons worshipping three different Gods? Where in scripture has it been said that the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.

The three are separate yet one in mindset, one - all three are in perfect agreement, all three being in complete perfect harmony with one another. God the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit - often referred to as the God Head.
 
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Okay so, God is three distinct persons in one God correct? But how can that be? Isn't the worship of one God in three distinct persons worshipping three different Gods? Where in scripture has it been said that the Holy Spirit is God?

I mean in Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us create mankind in our image" now if God were not at least two in one why would he have said something like this? But yet how can God possibly be three distinct fully God persons and yet still be one God? It's just not possible and I might have to wait until I meet God to know the truth. But it does make me wonder... Can somebody please satisfactorily answer my question? Thanks.

The biblical data:

1) There is only one God.
2) When talking about God Jesus refers to Him as His Father.
3) As the Son of God Jesus is referred to as God as well.
4) Jesus as the Son is distinct from His Father.
5) Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as distinct from Himself and the Father, by saying the Father will send the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is another from Himself.
6) The Holy Spirit is referred to as God at a couple of occasions, for example in the Acts of the Apostles lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.
7) There are therefore three distinct Someones who are called God.

Therefore the question, how can there be three distinct Someones called God, and also only one God? The answer the Christian Church has confessed is this:

All three distinct Someones are of one undivided Essence. The Son and the Holy Spirit share in the Father's Essence, therefore the Son and the Holy Spirit are God because the Father is God. The Son is God of the Father (as the Nicene Creed says), this is what the Son being only-begotten means, He has His eternal generation from the Father as God of God, not another god, but God--even as His Father is God. Also, the Holy Spirit is God of the Father [and the Son], for the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father [and the Son] from all eternity, also as true and very God.

We do not have three gods, but one God. For the Godhead of the Father is the Godhead of the Son and the Spirit as well, because the Son has His eternal generation from the Father and the Spirit has His eternal procession from the Father [and the Son]. Thus the Deity is undivided, inseparate, entirely one. That which the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit are likewise. Likewise, the Father is never apart from the Son or the Spirit, neither the Son every apart from the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit never apart from the Father and the Son--for each coinheres in the other, in perfect unity of Being, without division, without separation. This is what the Christian Church refers to as the perichoresis of the Trinity--in the unity of God's Being there is never one before or after or beside, but all in and existing through and by one another. Not that the Father is God of the Son, for the Son is God of the Father; but that the Father is never outside or without His Son, but fills Him perfectly, and the Son fills the Father perfectly, and the Spirit being filled, and filling, and being with, in, and by perfectly. In the utter incomprehensible mystery and perfection of the Most Holy Trinity, our God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The three are separate yet one in mindset, one - all three are in perfect agreement, all three being in complete perfect harmony with one another. God the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit - often referred to as the God Head.

The word "Godhead" is simply an archaic English word that means "Deity". From the word "God" and the suffix "-head" which is the precursor tot he modern English suffix "-hood". Thus "Godhead" is the archaic form of "Godhood", i.e. having the full quality of being God. Which is also what the Greek word St. Paul uses in Colossians means, he uses the word theotes, meaning "the state or condition of being God". Thus to say of Christ, "In Him is the fullness of the Godhead bodily" is to say that Christ is fully God, fully Divine.

Christ has full and perfect Godhood, because He is eternally God as the eternal and only-begotten Son of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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