Open Challenge To Flat Earthers Worldwide

[New Birth]

Well, this verse seems to support the idea that the circle is the firmament of the sky above. Read the whole verse. God sits upon (or above) the firmament of the earth, and we are like grasshoppers. In this same verse the heaven (firmament) is described as a curtain and tent.

Show me more verses, if you can.

I see nothing in the verse that would lead me to believe the earth was flat or any other shape. The only descriptive adjective of the Earth is "circle" in this verse. Isaiah 40:2. Whether "upon" or "above" is used it does not indicate that to which He sits above or upon is not described as "circle".

 

[FEZZILLA]

Unnecessary information. Genesis 1:6-8 is so simple.

Genesis 1:6-8 is about the first heaven -- the sky of the earth.
Genesis 1:14-19 is about the 2nd heavens -- space.
When you see heavens as plural it commonly refers to the 2nd heavens or sometimes the 1st and 2nd heavens together. The KJV says the same thing but the grammar is outdated which is why there is a need for modern translations. The very best modern translations are the NKJV and the MEV. The grammar is corrected to fit our modern rules of grammar.

Now read the chapter from the NKJV and MEV and tell where you see God place the sun, moon and stars in the sky of the earth.
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New King James Version

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - Modern English Version

 

[Jonaitis]

I see nothing in the verse that would lead me to believe the earth was flat or any other shape. The only descriptive adjective of the Earth is "circle" in this verse. Isaiah 40:2. Whether "upon" or "above" is used it does not indicate that to which He sits above or upon is not described as "circle".

Ok. I'm not going to bend Scripture to fit our modern lens.

I posted another post, with Job 22:14.

 

[FEZZILLA]

You just can not understand the Bible is God inspired, peoples opinions are not, I do not care how smart you think they are.

I can show you from the Bible and only the Bible that the Bible describes a different creation than what science states.
You can not, you have to bring in peoples opinions to support you ideas.

Because your opinion DOESN'T MATTER! There is 2000 years of outstanding scholarship and you want people here to believe that you are the source of knowledge. Did you bother to read my post about the authority of the church on these matters?


The Authority of the Visible Church

Flat earthers and atheists do not believe that the visible Christian church has ecclesiastical authority over Biblical doctrine, that atheists have as much right to teach the meaning of Scripture than consecrated priests -- that the early church fathers, including Clement of Rome (Philippians 4:3), have no more authority to interpret Scripture than an atheist or a rebellious flat earther. They believe the Bible teaches flat earth and all the church fathers were wrong about their globe earth reading. Some flat earthers claim Clement of Rome is a hell bound soul for reading globe earth from the Bible -- that only in the 21st century do we finally understand the Gospel and its all about flat earth doctrine.

So I have gathered up a few verses maintaining the reality that ecclesiastical authority belongs to Christian Church.

Matthew 10:1,

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."

Matthew 10:40,

"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me, receives him who sent me."

Matthew 16:19,

"And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Luke 10:16,

"He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me."

John 13:20,

"Truly truly I say to you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me. And he who receives me, receives him who sent me."

Ephesians 2:20,

"And you are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the head cornerstone,"

Hebrews 13:17,

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

1 Timothy 5:17,

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Titus 1:5,

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee."

Acts 20:28-32,

"28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13,

"12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves."

1 Timothy 4:14,

"Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy, with the laying on of hands by the elders."

James 5:14-15,

"Is anyone sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven."

Ephesians 4:11-13,

"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

Titus 2:1-8,

"But as for you, teach what is fitting of sound doctrine: 2 Older men should be sober, serious, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience.

3 Likewise, older women should be reverent in behavior, and not be false accusers, not be enslaved to much wine, but teachers of good things, 4 that they may teach the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 and to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.

6 Likewise, exhort young men to be self-controlled, 7 in all things presenting yourself as an example of good works: in doctrine showing integrity, gravity, incorruptibility, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that the one who opposes you may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you."

Galatians 1:6-10,

"6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel, 7 which is not a gospel. But there are some who trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 Although if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than the one we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so I say now again: If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than the one you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For am I now seeking the approval of men or of God? Or am I trying to please men? For if I were still trying to please men, I would not be the servant of Christ."

Philippians 4:3 ,

"I ask you also, true companion, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

The Gospel of Christ did not cease after the deaths of the Apostles. They chose successors to continue the Gospel message and Clement of Rome was one of those early 1st century successors. No Christian is going to argue against sound doctrine unless their hearts have become corrupt and rebellious. All ministers of the Gospel must be believers who are disciplined and obedient to Christ.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Ok. I'm not going to bend Scripture to fit our modern lens.

I posted another post, with Job 22:14.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

 

[Jonaitis]

View attachment 251200

Your point is? All the definitions used here doesn't change the fact that it is referring to the firmament. Call it globe, circle, vault, whatever, it clearly looks like that from ground perspective.

 

[New Birth]

Ok. I'm not going to bend Scripture to fit our modern lens.

I posted another post, with Job 22:14.

Ecclesiastes 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north:

Is this in reference to the wind going around the earth from the north to the south?

 

[FEZZILLA]

Your point is? All the definitions used here doesn't change the fact that it is referring to the firmament. Call it globe, circle, vault, whatever, it clearly looks like that from ground perspective.

It's not coming from a human's perspective. Its prophecy and that is from God's perspective.

Isaiah 40:22 is not the only verse in Isaiah that says the earth is a circular globe.

Isaiah 18:3,

"Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 34:1,

"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

 

[Jonaitis]

Ecclesiastes 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north:

Is this in reference to the wind going around the earth from the north to the south?

Or, wind blows the same.

Besides this point, meteorologists always show that the current of the wind isn't consistently blowing in one direction.

 

[Jonaitis]

It's not coming from a human's perspective. Its prophecy and that is from God's perspective.

Isaiah 40:22 is not the only verse in Isaiah that says the earth is a circular globe.

Isaiah 18:3,

"Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 34:1,

"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

I pointed Job 22:14 that says God walks upon the circle of heaven, you gave me definitions. What are you not seeing eye to eye on?

 

[New Birth]

Or, wind blows the same.

Besides this point, meteorologists always show that the current of the wind isn't consistently blowing in one direction.

so are we going to include modern technologies or scriptures? you just posted "Ok. I'm not going to bend Scripture to fit our modern lens" So do we get modern or not?

 

[New Birth]

I pointed Job 22:14 that says God walks upon the circle of heaven, you gave me definitions. What are you not seeing eye to eye on?

I know you were not posting this to me but.Maybe I have not read enough of the thread to understand your position, can you explain.

 

[Jonaitis]

so are we going to include modern technologies or scriptures? you just posted "Ok. I'm not going to bend Scripture to fit our modern lens" So do we get modern or not?

We should accept what we discover, like the fact that the planet is a globe. But we shouldn't try to make Holy Writ say something or defend something it did not originally defend. God spoke according to the limitations of our senses (ex. Joshua stopped the sun) to teach us, he didn't need to get scientific about it, he simply had a message to give and communicated it in such a way that people living in Job, Moses, or Isaiah's time would understand what was being conveyed. Genesis 1 is a big problem for creationists, like us, to defend scientifically. How is there light before the sun? How is there an earth before the sun to orbit around and stars? To grapple with this in our modern lens, we will have to jump hoops and do gymnastics to prove it scientifically. We don't have to do that, because God spoke in a way that a child can understand how creation began. We need to read it as a servant girl heard it in Moses' day, with the perspective they understood with their natural senses.

Creation account is true, undoubtedly, but the details is not for us to completely understand.

 

[Jonaitis]

Does Jesus ascending to heaven bodily by passing first into the firmament confuse people? Yes, if we put our modern lens on instead of what the apostle's viewed by default. Same language in Acts as with Isaiah 40:22, according to our limitations.

 

[Jonaitis]

I may be wrong, but I believe that three heavens (spoken of by Paul) refers to what we can see and what we can't.

The first heaven is clearly the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). This is below the clouds, and above the ground.

The second heaven is, how I see it, the expanse seen between the clouds and the heavenly host (sun, moon, stars). This is clearly understood to be at a distance from the clouds, since it moves behind the clouds and the clouds move in front of it. I am not even thinking about "outer space" the way we see it, but the distinction between the sun and the clouds by human view.

I believe the "third" heaven would be whatever is beyond that point, which our eyes cannot perceive. This is the "highest heaven" we read in the OT, and this may be perhaps what it means for Jesus to be taken up and the cloud received him.

You're suppose to think this way, I believe, when reading this. Jesus sits at the right hand of God beyond the view of the first two firmaments. No need to be scientific about it. Heaven, as we know it as the presence of God, is something beyond our limitations.

 

[New Birth]

I may be wrong, but I believe that three heavens (spoken of by Paul) refers to what we can see and what we can't.

The first heaven is clearly the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). This is below the clouds, and above the ground.

The second heaven is, how I see it, the expanse seen between the clouds and the heavenly host (sun, moon, stars). This is clearly understood to be at a distance from the clouds, since it moves behind the clouds and the clouds move in front of it. I am not even thinking about "outer space" the way we see it, but the distinction between the sun and the clouds by human view.

I believe the "third" heaven would be whatever is beyond that point, which our eyes cannot perceive. This is the "highest heaven" we read in the OT, and this may be perhaps what it means for Jesus to be taken up and the cloud received him.

You're suppose to think this way, I believe, when reading this. Jesus sits at the right hand of God beyond the view of the first two firmaments. No need to be scientific about it. Heaven, as we know it as the presence of God, is something beyond our limitations.

Right I believe very close to this. 1 heaven within earths atmosphere, sky, clouds. 2heaven sun moon stars. 3 heaven the throne of God unseen spiritual.
I do believe the Apostles literally witnessed the resurrected body leave the ground and go into the sky and went into a cloud in what we refer to as the first heaven.

 

[Jonaitis]

Right I believe very close to this. 1 heaven within earths atmosphere, sky, clouds. 2heaven sun moon stars. 3 heaven the throne of God unseen spiritual.
I do believe the Apostles literally witnessed the resurrected body leave the ground and go into the sky and went into a cloud in what we refer to as the first heaven.

Should we really find a reason to debate flat-earthers? Only if they go too far, but other than that I don't see a reason. It doesn't change the message of Scripture, I actually think it helps us understand it better.

 

[New Birth]

Should we really find a reason to debate flat-earthers? Only if they go too far, but other than that I don't see a reason. It doesn't change the message of Scripture, I actually think it helps us understand it better.

I agree that it has no bearing on doctrine nor is it a salvation issue. No doubt some early Christians believed the earth was flat or that the universe revolved around it. Not sure what "too far" would be unless someone believes it is an essential doctrine one way or the other, then we would all be wrong.

 

[Jonaitis]

I agree that it has no bearing on doctrine nor is it a salvation issue. No doubt some early Christians believed the earth was flat or that the universe revolved around it. Not sure what "too far" would be unless someone believes it is an essential doctrine one way or the other, then we would all be wrong.

I would say too far by trying to bend the reality of things (like how planes fly) to defend it.