Early Christian Persecution

[BABerean2]

I believe everyone is well aware of Matthew 24. I did after all harmonize it..............

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the same event?
Edit

1. *
   Yes
   13 vote(s)
   81.3%
2. No
   1 vote(s)
   6.3%
3. I don't know
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. Other [please explain]
   2 vote(s)
   12.5%

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>


The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 17:4
and the Woman was arrayed with purple and scarlet-colour, and gilded with gold, and precious stone, and pearls,
having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and uncleanness of Her whoredom,

Matthew 23
35 - “that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>

Luke 13:
34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,

......................

What if "the times of the Gentiles" is the period of time when the Gospel is taken to the Gentiles, as found in Acts of the Apostles 28:28, and Romans 11:25, and Galatians 1:14-18, and it is synonymous with a time of tribulation, which ends at the future Second Coming of Christ?

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."


Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Mar 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Mar 13:25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.


Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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[chilehed]

The Torah was an elaborate set of rules and festivals which "Law Abiding" Jews were to keep

Ummm.... no. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament. If you were ever to attend a service at a Synagogue, you'd see the Rabbi open up the Ark, bring out a scroll and read from it. That's the Torah: the fist five books of the Old Testament.

 

[Just The Facts]

HI MKgal

Sorry I missed your post first read through. The Gospels were not penned by the names on them. Mark is now believed to be the earliest and Matthew and Luke taken from Mark, All were penned in Greek and this shows that they were Pagan converts that most likely wrote them. John was written by at least three different Authors over a 30 year period. Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

Perhaps but it explains allot. Pretrib rapture is one of those doctrines of men that requires three things

1. ignore Jesus' plain words in Mathew 24 where the order of events is clear.

[29]"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;[30] then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; [31] and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2. You have to twist other scripture to explain away the ones you ignore.

3. You have to believe that God has just selected you and other Christians to escape what no other saints escaped. What Jesus tells us over and over again we will not escape.

I am really not interested in debating Pretrib with you or anyone ..................as years and years of experience has taught me it is pointless. It is one of those doctrines people cling to with no scriptural basis and will not listen to anything anyone says or any amount of scripture you point to show the error of the doctrine.

This also explains why you believe what you believe about Rv:6

 

[BABerean2]

The Gospels were not penned by the names on them. Mark is now believed to be the earliest and Matthew and Luke taken from Mark, All were penned in Greek and this shows that they were Pagan converts that most likely wrote them. John was written by at least three different Authors over a 30 year period. Hope that clears it up for you.

Where did you come up with the claims found above?

Are you claiming that Paul, and Luke could not write in Greek?


1Co_14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

......................................

1 Corinthians 14:18

(CJB) I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you,

(ESV) I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

(Geneva) I thanke my God, I speake languages more then ye all.

(Greek NT TR) ευχαριστω τω θεω μου παντων υμων μαλλον γλωσσαις λαλων

(GW) I thank God that I speak in other languages more than any of you.

(LITV-TSP) I thank my God that I speak more languages than all of you.

(KJV) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

(KJV+) I thankG2168 myG3450 God,G2316 I speakG2980 with tonguesG1100 moreG3123 than yeG5216 all:G3956

(NKJV) I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

(YLT) I give thanks to my God—more than you all with tongues speaking—

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[One Son]

I agree they are Jews/Israelites, the ones killed because of the corrupt murderous 1st century Judean rulers.

Mat 23:
30“and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
33 “Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?
Acts 7:52 -
“Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One,
of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,

The day of vengeance came upon the Jews in 70ad, about 40 yrs from the time of Pentecost, stoning of Stephen, Paul's conversion, and then preaching the Gospel up to the Jewish wars, then 70ad.....

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

Luke 21:22
That days of vengeance/<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written
Luke 18:
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unrighteous judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them? 8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Revelation 6:10
And they cry out to a great voice saying "how long, the Owner/Master<1203> the Holy and True, not Thou are judging and avenging<1556> the blood of us from out of the ones homing upon the land?"
=======================
One of the few places I see the "Gentiles" mentioned in Revelation is in Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 17 concerning the 10 horns desolating 70ad Jerusalem, IMHO

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that nigh Her desolation.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 17:
15 And He is saying to me "These, the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot, and they shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked, and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating
and shall be burning Her in fire.
17 For the GOD gives into Their hearts to do the mind of Him, and to do One mind and to give Their kingdom to the Beast until shall be being finished<5055> the words of the GOD.

Revelation 18:
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

18 and they cried<2896>, observing the smoke of Her firing, saying, "What like to the great City?"
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.

Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
‘HalleluYah!
the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings,
that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom,
and avenges the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand.
=====================
Thus the fulfillment of the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse.

Matthew 23
35 - “that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>

Luke 13:
34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

.......................

Good post,


Matt.19:27(ASV) Then answered Peter and said unto him, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee; what then shall we have? 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life. 30But many shall be last that are first; and first that are last.

ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Do you think this is the First Resurrection?


Rev.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:21)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Good post,
Matt.19:27(ASV) Then answered Peter and said unto him, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee; what then shall we have? 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life. 30But many shall be last that are first; and first that are last.
ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Do you think this is the First Resurrection?

Rev.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:21)

I was thinking it could be either the 2 witnesses or the 144,000 standing with the Lambkin on Mt Zion, or perhaps even both.
Perhaps you could look at this thread I created on it and give your views. Thanks again

REVE 20:5-6 "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION"
REVE 20:5-6 "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION"

2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

[This is a sort of a off-shoot of the above thread concerning the resurrection]Thank you for that post.


I was translating/studying on those 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 and something just stood out at me concerning the word "stand<2476" and remembered that is also the word used in the word for "resurrection<2476>" which literally means to "stand up", such as from a laying down or sitting position.

Could it be possible/plausible that those 2 witnesses could be symbolizing those of the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20?

I put some verses up from Revelation that use #2476, along with the Greek.

Revelation 11:11
And after the three days and a half,
a spirit of life out of the GOD entered into Them,
and They stand<esthsan 2476> upon their feet.
And great fear fell upon those beholding them,

Revelation 20:
5 The rest of the dead not live until should be being finished the thousand years,
This the First Resurrection<ἀνάστασις/ana-stasiV 386>
6 Happy/blessed and holy the one having part<3313> in the first Resurrection<ἀναστάσει ana-stasei 386>,

Revelation 14:1
And I saw and behold!
a Lambkin standing<esthkos 2476> upon the mount Sion,
and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;

Revelation 15:2
and I saw as a glassy<5193>sea having been mingled to fire,
and those conquering>3528> out of the beast, and out of his image<1504>, and out of the number of it's name,
standing<ἑστῶτας/estwtaV 2476> upon the glassy sea, having harps/lyres of Lord the God,

Revelation 20:12
and I saw the dead, the great<3173> and the small<3398>, standing<ἑστῶτας/estwtaV 2476> before *God[*throne],
and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is being of the life,
and were judged the dead out of the having been written in the scrolls according to their works

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

386. anastasis
a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case
or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):
raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
G386 ἀνάστασις (anastasis) occurs 42 times in 40 verses

303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)

2476. histemi a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):--abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).
G2476 ἵστημι (histēmi) occurs 163 times in 152 verses

Revelation 20:1-4

Some greek resources I use:

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online
Reve 20:1-6

Revelation 20 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com
Reve 20:1-6



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